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Commission on the Defence Forces - Reserve Discussion

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  • [QUOTE=Auldsod;485058]Agreed with most of the points. I believe rank should be non-negotiable for the FLR of course but I still think their may need to be potential parallel RDF rank.

    Take what I'm familiar with - the NSR. The higher levels of the organisation would be swamped with even 2-3 Lt Cdrs or CPOs joining from the PDF.

    Could you see an ex PDF Cdr (and wearing the rank) as XO of a unit with an RDF Lt Cdr as CO? Messy.

    Nope, I could not see that happening. I could see the RDF oc moved sideways for the PDF guy to come in. The problem with the PDF coming in at those ranks is they will not give it up and would expect given their experience to be made co. And I can understand that. They would bring a wealth of experience to any RDF unit. And as it stands, if the 1st line was active, you can go from PDF to FLR to SLR and keep your rank. I know of a unit which raised the question with their GOC looking to get it stopped because it would be unfair on the RDF guy who would end up in a promotion competition against him. The relief in the unit to find out that he could not come across was huge. However if FLR was active it would have happened.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
      Nope, I could not see that happening. I could see the RDF oc moved sideways for the PDF guy to come in. The problem with the PDF coming in at those ranks is they will not give it up and would expect given their experience to be made co. And I can understand that. They would bring a wealth of experience to any RDF unit. And as it stands, if the 1st line was active, you can go from PDF to FLR to SLR and keep your rank. I know of a unit which raised the question with their GOC looking to get it stopped because it would be unfair on the RDF guy who would end up in a promotion competition against him. The relief in the unit to find out that he could not come across was huge. However if FLR was active it would have happened.
      Completely understandable from both sides. That's just how the Brits do it though... I'm sure their regular officers and NCOs have a wealth of experience, etc too but it works for them.

      Then again, they have much better legislation and regulations in place governing being in the reserve and rank in the UK. Someone moving across and taking a hit to rank would be fully sure that their 'regular' rank is higher and if there was a general call up - that's where they'd be at. We have R5

      Then again, the British organisation is far larger with many reserve staff jobs etc. I suppose we are in the situation where once you top out as CO of your unit, there are very few avenues outside your unit so you're essentially there until you leave or hit the age cap. Would mean someone external just couldn't come in and command the unit for 15 years (possible!) if certain positions moved around more.
      Last edited by Auldsod; 8 February 2021, 13:31.

      Comment


      • I get your points and comments. But basing us on the British army model is not the best. Should be based on a like type force. British army Reservists like you would be paid considerably more than your PDF equivalent in rank. Basically you are not out of pocket for your time deployed. If your paid €80k in the financial sector and deployed overseas you still get your €80k salary. If you complete your 19 days training & KPI'S you can get a bounty (grat). But the courses are really based on the units needs and not like it is here, your available for x course and get it but unit may not benefit from it. admino 1 of 2013 applies to ourselves (apart from overseas and employment protection etc) but generally it's not followed. Anyway, the future of all RDF wp projects lays in hands of COD, it's up to them to find a real way to make it work.
        I agree in part to just scrap the current model and start again but given we cant get rid of non effective officers from the last reorg I dont hold out to much for the RDF. I really think a two pronged RDF (specialist and normal) will just reduce the overall numbers down.
        Last edited by batterysgt; 8 February 2021, 15:32.

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        • Under no circumstances should someone have to take a drop in rank, which then creates a difficult especially at SNCO and senior officers ranks due to small establishment.

          Establishment does require alterations anyway as it is disjointed. But look at it this way good way of filling tech, specialist, Instrs and staff positions (unit HQs, Bde HQs and Special Staff) with people with necessary skills, qualifications and experience.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Under no circumstances should someone have to take a drop in rank, which then creates a difficult especially at SNCO and senior officers ranks due to small establishment.

            Establishment does require alterations anyway as it is disjointed. But look at it this way good way of filling tech, specialist, Instrs and staff positions (unit HQs, Bde HQs and Special Staff) with people with necessary skills, qualifications and experience.
            Very fair point. As you say, those with exceptional knowledge would possibly be able to better utilise their skills outside of a regular company.

            It'll be interesting to see what the Commission comes up with. I wonder if they'll use IMO for some guidance. A treasure trove of ideas good and bad!

            Comment


            • You could create a special Warrant/yeoman rank for these people, neither officer nor senior NCO.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                You could create a special Warrant/yeoman rank for these people, neither officer nor senior NCO.
                Why reinvent the wheel?

                There are vacancies at all ranks (on the AR establishment) afaik bar 1

                If there are too many hold them supernumerary plenty of jobs & taskings available.

                Comment


                • Supernumary can be messy when you have too many at one rank and varying seniority.

                  Comment


                  • Do appointments have a rank band to do them? For example, I remember the Field Ambulance had an establishment of one nurse, who could be a Lieutenant to Major. Might be one solution?
                    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                      Do appointments have a rank band to do them? For example, I remember the Field Ambulance had an establishment of one nurse, who could be a Lieutenant to Major. Might be one solution?
                      Yes
                      Picking numbers out of the air here but the Med Coy could have 1 x Lt Col (MO), 2 x Comdt (MO), 4 x Lt (MO), 1 x Lt (Line)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Yes
                        Picking numbers out of the air here but the Med Coy could have 1 x Lt Col (MO), 2 x Comdt (MO), 4 x Lt (MO), 1 x Lt (Line)
                        Yea, what I mean is could it have 2xCol, 1xComdt, 3x Cpt and 3x Lt if that was the ranks of the people available?

                        It’s the same numbers of MO’s, but the rank is reflecting the individual’s experience rather than being bound to X numbers at each rank. People could still be promoted as required by time served etc, but the specific role is depending on qualification of the holder, not their rank (which can be flexible)?

                        Or is that how it is already and I’m just displaying my ignorance?
                        Last edited by Flamingo; 9 February 2021, 00:04.
                        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                          Yea, what I mean is could it have 2xCol, 1xComdt, 3x Cpt and 3x Lt if that was the ranks of the people available?

                          It’s the same numbers of MO’s, but the rank is reflecting the individual’s experience rather than being bound to X numbers at each rank. People could still be promoted as required by time served etc, but the specific role is depending on qualification of the holder, not their rank (which can be flexible)?

                          Or is that how it is already and I’m just displaying my ignorance?
                          It has happened in reorgs but not by design (higher ranks holding appointment of a lower rank). If there is extra of a rank they are supposed to be supernumerary and generally will cause a halt to promotions (eg unit a has an extra Comdt, unit b has 1 too few but can’t promote as the total number of Comdts is correct)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                            Yea, what I mean is could it have 2xCol, 1xComdt, 3x Cpt and 3x Lt if that was the ranks of the people available?

                            It’s the same numbers of MO’s, but the rank is reflecting the individual’s experience rather than being bound to X numbers at each rank. People could still be promoted as required by time served etc, but the specific role is depending on qualification of the holder, not their rank (which can be flexible)?

                            Or is that how it is already and I’m just displaying my ignorance?
                            Quick question. Whilst there are rank bands from which appointments can be filled at the unit level - are there overall limits within the British Army and the RAMC in particular for the number of personnel in each rank?

                            Similar to how DeV has described as operates here?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              It has happened in reorgs but not by design (higher ranks holding appointment of a lower rank). If there is extra of a rank they are supposed to be supernumerary and generally will cause a halt to promotions (eg unit a has an extra Comdt, unit b has 1 too few but can’t promote as the total number of Comdts is correct)
                              In the 1990 Commission on remuneration and Conditions of Service the following Establishment and Strengths applied:

                              Officers E: 1895 S: 1618

                              NCO's E: 5,982 S: 5046

                              Privates E : 10,101 S : 6,569.

                              If you take the Officer Establishment and compare it to actual Strength it highlights "extras" in 1990.

                              Lt. General E: 1 S:1
                              Major Gen. E:2 S:2
                              Brig. Gen. E:8 S:8
                              Colonel E:36 S:41
                              LT. Colonel E:135 S:152
                              Comdt. E:428 S:498
                              Capt. E:783 S:537
                              Lieuts. E502 S: 379 Note this strength includes 2nd Lieuts and 61 cadets.

                              The extras occur at Colonel , Lieutenant Colonel , and Commandant with obvious shortages at the coal face. Similar applies in the relative strengths of NCOs and Private showing something wrong with recruitment at the time.

                              Comment


                              • @ Auldsod - I honestly don’t know at this stage. I’m out 20 years now (eek!) but I never heard that mentioned as an organisational thing, only at unit level. Maybe Ropebag or RGJ (when he’s back from his holidays) might know.
                                Last edited by Flamingo; 9 February 2021, 12:07.
                                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                                Comment

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