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  • #46
    The romantic part of me agrees with 'na grohmiti' here and the image of a local young lad or girl joining up in their local small town or even village. It is an appealing vision. Links to the local community and everyone has an opportunity to join. There really is a lot to like about the idea.

    However, the realist part of me agrees with ‘trellheim’ and realises that these outposts even if they are for recruitment purposes only, are useless from a training point of view and stink of FCA and hobbyism rather true citizen soldiery. The solution for getting more numbers in the door isn't looking for a bricks and mortar point of recruitment in each locality where someone can turn up on a parade night and sign up. We all know most of those left shortly after their 3* star training anyway. Also, young people are more likely to engage digitally initially now anyway and would probably rather make their initial contact with their smartphone than blindly turning up on a Tuesday/Wednesday night.

    I think the RDF needs to look for the right kind of recruit now and that's why some modicum of reward needs to be there. The private who won't go anywhere unless he can grab transport just down the road is unreliable. That means we need to operate in urban environments co-located with the PDF (as is largely done now) and joiners need to realise that you are giving up time to provide the state some service. This isn't a free to join paid activity club. That probably means those from rural areas will need to have their own transport and pay for their own fuel to get to the barracks week in week out. Yes, it may make it more difficult for someone to casually join but you get someone who shows commitment by driving 45 min each way once a week. Being honest, you could be longer on a bus if you are getting a bus to parade in one of the cities anyway.... Yes, this is disadvantaging the lad with no car who lives far from a barracks but the goal of the RDF is to provide a reserve for the DF, not to provide him with an activity close to home.

    That's the model the Brits and the yanks have for their units not located in large cities.

    Now back to one of my previous points, this commitment can be rewarded by paying for all activities including parade nights with a quarters day's pay. A Corporal will get roughly a tenner after tax (assuming 40%) for turning up once a week. This would cover his/her diesel at least. A college age 3* gets €15 (assuming they have no part time job and below tax threshold) which probably still pays for 6 cans of cheap pi*s and a bag of chips.

    In short, we need to attract people who are willing to give up their time and yes, potentially get screwed over by the system every now and then all because they want to provide some service to the State. On the flip side it could be incentivised by more pay (bet it would cost only a few 100k if we got the numbers in) and getting to perform some fulfilling, challenging and often very fun training.

    Comment


    • #47
      Now back to one of my previous points, this commitment can be rewarded by paying for all activities including parade nights with a quarters day's pay. A Corporal will get roughly a tenner after tax (assuming 40%) for turning up once a week. This would cover his/her diesel at least. A college age 3* gets €15 (assuming they have no part time job and below tax threshold) which probably still pays for 6 cans of cheap pi*s and a bag of chips.

      In short, we need to attract people who are willing to give up their time and yes, potentially get screwed over by the system every now and then all because they want to provide some service to the State. On the flip side it could be incentivised by more pay (bet it would cost only a few 100k if we got the numbers in) and getting to perform some fulfilling, challenging and often very fun training

      It is technically possible ( never been denied) that you can claim travelling expenses to RDF training against tax, since the Gratuity has been abolished.
      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        There absolutely isn’t a recruitment crisis in the DF

        Most of the issues with RDF recruitment can be solved by serving RDF personnel. There was 6,000 applications to join between Sept 2015 and Dec 2016. If memory serves the actual attestations were around 350. I believe the numbers applying are now down to around 1,000. Why? Because in a lot of cases they didn’t hear anything for months later.

        If retention had ever been addressed pre 2013, the RDF wouldn’t be in the state it is now.
        I agree with your point on one level and I do think that putting the power to recruit back with diligent RDF personnel using an open door recruitment policy would greatly increase numbers being invited to fitness tests and interviews.

        In my experience and I'm assuming this can be corroborated by the experiences of those in other units - a very large proportion of those who are contacted and commit to turning up for a fitness test don't show. I've experienced fitness testing where numerous potential recruits said they'd show and not one turned up.

        Also, even when you do get potential recruits on site, a large proportion fail the recruit fitness test.

        I wasn't involved in the 90s and early 00s but would the FCA's recruitment have been as strong if the same initial fitness test was rigorously applied then?
        All I’m saying is that a thousand plus application probably still means only a few hundred attestations at most even with RDF led recruiting and assuming better efficiency.
        Last edited by Auldsod; 18 January 2021, 16:52.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by trellheim View Post
          It is technically possible ( never been denied) that you can claim travelling expenses to RDF training against tax, since the Gratuity has been abolished.
          I'm intrigued to know how though?

          My understanding that this would be true if you were in a trade and you could write off the transport expenses (diesel, etc) off against the revenue from said trade. Usually the vehicle used for trading is either a seperate asset or a percentage of a share work/domestic vehicle is allocated to private and work use (within revenue guidelines).

          I'd consider RDF service to be more akin to PAYE work so it shouldn't be possible. I'm a PAYE worker and I can't claim my travelling expenses commuting to work against my tax.

          I do agree that there could be a way of tax incentivising the RDF though but not the above. Travel expenses could be difficult to prove to revenue if you're not using public transport.
          Last edited by Auldsod; 18 January 2021, 16:52.

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          • #50
            I am afraid you are incorrect Trelheim, there is numerous tax case law to support Revenue's position that the cost of travel to and from your place of work is not a tax deductible expense.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
              I agree with your point on one level and I do think that putting the power to recruit back with diligent RDF personnel using an open door recruitment policy would greatly increase numbers being invited to fitness tests and interviews.

              In my experience and I'm assuming this can be corroborated by the experiences of those in other units - a very large proportion of those who are contacted and commit to turning up for a fitness test don't show. I've experienced fitness testing where numerous potential recruits said they'd show and not one turned up.

              Also, even when you do get potential recruits on site, a large proportion fail the recruit fitness test.

              I wasn't involved in the 90s and early 00s but would the FCA's recruitment have been as strong if the same initial fitness test was rigorously applied then?
              All I’m saying is that a thousand plus application probably still means only a few hundred attestations at most even with RDF led recruiting and assuming better efficiency.
              Why was recruitment better ? Because there was FCA outposts in most of the towns in the country, if every subunit got 5 recruits you’d probably get 500 recruits a year.

              They also didn’t have to do fitness tests, you could join at 17, etc etc

              Absolutely there will be no shows but how much notice, transport provided from Coy HQ (they wanted to join in say Clifden not Galway), etc

              RDF need to take ownership. Where they seek it and are let it works.

              Comment


              • #52
                Simple solution to the Parading "problem". Wadi it. Two hours a week is counterproductive. Trying to fit too much into too little time.

                One weekend a month.Paid.In a MANNED Bks(No camp guard,access to training facilities,kit etc.)Report on Friday night for kit/accomodation issue etc. Two fulls days proper training. Advertised well in advance at start of year as to the dates to allow for personnel planning.

                You could organise pick up points for DF Transport on Friday evening at smaller outlying towns.You make your way there and meet up with other participants.Dropped back to that spot on sunday evening.

                More return on the investment,Better training facilities etc.
                Last edited by apod; 18 January 2021, 17:48.
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by apod View Post
                  Simple solution to the Parading "problem". Wadi it. Two hours a week is counterproductive. Trying to fit too much into too little time.

                  One weekend a month.Paid.In a MANNED Bks(No camp guard,access to training facilities,kit etc.)Report on Friday night for kit/accomodation issue etc. Two fulls days proper training. Advertised well in advance at start of year as to the dates to allow for personnel planning.

                  You could organise pick up points for DF Transport on Friday evening at smaller outlying towns.You make your way there and meet up with other participants.Dropped back to that spot on sunday evening.

                  More return on the investment,Better training facilities etc.
                  Doesn't seem like a bad future to me. Requires more commitment but we would be so much more efficient.

                  Better training and just the benefits of being in a military environment for a whole weekend and all that entails.

                  Wouldn't suit the tea drinkers though....

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    there is numerous tax case law to support Revenue's position that the cost of travel to and from your place of work is not a tax deductible expense
                    agreed but the State is adamant that the Reserve is not a job !

                    I've got a PQ in the back somewhere proving this. I'll email you.



                    Anyway back to the thread the RDF is not usable in its current form except in spite of itself ( pockets of value via some specialisations, and some digouts on duties ) EVEN IF YOU GOT ESTABLISHMENT TO 100% there is still zero political will to use it, zero requirement from the PDF to use it ( apart from crisis manning ) , and fk-all money to fund it. If it got to 100% manning the number of mandays to pay everyone would drop back to seven or so per annum.


                    WP2015 and White Paper Update 2019 basically kicked the RDF to touch with a list of projects that haven't been actioned in any serious form. This is well known, and i'm only using it to bolster my argument re no-one really cares.

                    Any superficial fixes ( R5 amendment moving deckchairs on the titanic) will do nothing to halt the decline. We've showed this with the numbers thread - the decline is almost unstoppable.

                    At the moment is the best time to stop things are so low - it can't/shouldn't continue . There is tremendous need for Medics, AC and NSR specialists, and the whole high-tech side and its time to reinvent completely from the ground up. Ditch the whole lot.

                    Is anyone seriously thinking we can recruit, man the numbers to establishment, and keep it as-is within any reasonable timeframe ? ( in a post-COVID world ) . If you don't think so and want to keep the current vision, it's condemning us to half-life for no purpose.
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
                      GDPR is just one of them.
                      There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
                      List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
                      Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
                      Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
                      Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
                      RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
                      All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

                      From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
                        There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
                        GDPR is just one of them.
                        There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
                        List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
                        Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
                        Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
                        Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
                        RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
                        All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

                        From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)
                        I saw this with my own eyes. There is a belief that you can't trust just 1 person with gathering this information, so instead a multitude do, and every time the recruit turns up, someone who isn't with the program takes the exact same details again, and keeps them in the same notebook they use on Ex to do their O Group. Officers were the worst for taking the info from the person designated to collect it, walking away with it, and leaving it on a windowsill somewhere after being distracted because it's coffee time. And unsurprisingly person who is responsible for collating said info won't berate officer for being a dope.
                        It's 15 years or more since I was last involved. All info kept on 1 laptop, used by 1 person. Hard copy kept either by me or Pln Commander, Pln Cdr was only point of contact for medicals/audiograms. (different system to today) Once attested all collated info deleted from laptop and hard copy shredded.
                        Saw it go wrong during the Reorg in other units where scraps of paper were being used, and lost, and reused, and lost again.
                        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                        German 2: Private? I am a general!
                        German 1: That is the bad news.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          All my examples are from recruitment campaigns 2018- to present, all errors were done by RLOs or should I say all those that helped the rlo when he/she could not keep up.

                          Again there are very diligent people in the RDF but recruitment is a fulltime job.
                          AR DFTC almost had a fulltime presence in G1 during the campaigns and were monitored by G1 frequently each week.
                          Last edited by batterysgt; 18 January 2021, 19:41.

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                          • #58
                            apart from all that, it shouldn't take a year to process a person into an organisation. That's just dereliction of duty,right there. No civvy organisation would tolerate it.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
                              There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
                              GDPR is just one of them.
                              There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
                              List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
                              Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
                              Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
                              Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
                              RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
                              All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

                              From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)
                              And all that goes around the candidates friends reducing the pool further.

                              It’s down to training, responsibility, experience to a degree, resourcing, taking ownership and preparation

                              Possibly a reason to keep units away from recruitment. A team of RDF (2/3 officers and similar amount of NCOs) in Bde Manpower

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                                apart from all that, it shouldn't take a year to process a person into an organisation. That's just dereliction of duty,right there. No civvy organisation would tolerate it.
                                In some cases it was approaching 2 years

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