Commission on the Defence Forces - Reserve Discussion

[batterysgt]

Enlisted First line but you can apply to 2nd line before you discharge.
Officers can only go to 1st line and again must apply to 2nd. But 1st line is inactive so no movement there for officers.

[DeV]

Don’t they have to apply for transfer to FLR?

It isn’t automatic

[na grohmiti]

First line needs a major shakeup. it's been a paper army for decades.
Someone should ask a pq as to when it last mobilised/trained in any significant numbers, if at all.

[DeV]

First line needs a major shakeup. it's been a paper army for decades.
Someone should ask a pq as to when it last mobilised/trained in any significant numbers, if at all.

And the cost

Ref VFM

[batterysgt]

Enlisted, no. Commissioned yes, that's from memory but would need to check regs to be 100%.

[ancientmariner]

And the cost

Ref VFM

If cost is a continual factor over a functioning Defence Force then the obvious applies including disbandment. All national Defence Forces are spending Departments and are so, that Alliances are maintained and people feel secure and safe ,and politics can work without sectional threat. Training is a continual requirement and is best if the reserve elements are embedded within formations. Reserves need mentoring and positive support to provide encouragement to reach standards required. Nothing can be done without spending money and budgets should allow for formation training.

[DeV]

If cost is a continual factor over a functioning Defence Force then the obvious applies including disbandment. All national Defence Forces are spending Departments and are so, that Alliances are maintained and people feel secure and safe ,and politics can work without sectional threat. Training is a continual requirement and is best if the reserve elements are embedded within formations. Reserves need mentoring and positive support to provide encouragement to reach standards required. Nothing can be done without spending money and budgets should allow for formation training.

The RDF VFM 2013 mentioned the FLR

The First Line Reserve (FLR) has reduced in strength by some 20% since 2006 with a 36% reduction in Officers. This has been due to recruitment of Officers being limited to those with technical qualifications. At the end of 2011 the strength of the FLR was 291 personnel. Officers of the FLR with technical qualifications were used to augment the Naval Service from 2006 – 2008. While there is an advantage in having trained former PDF personnel available to augment the PDF and assist in the training of members of the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve, there is a question about the currency of their skills. These skills may become eroded as members of the FLR are currently not required to participate in annual training and may serve for an extended timeframe.

The FLR is comprised of former members of the PDF who have volunteered or have a service commitment to serve on the FLR. As at 31/08/2012 the strength of the FLR was 264

The FLR is intended to provide a pool of trained military personnel with particular skills who are available at short notice to supplement PDF units in times of emergency. The FLR has two components; the Reserve of Officers (First Line) and the Reserve of Men (First Line). Membership of the FLR is restricted to personnel who have completed a term of engagement with the PDF and have undertaken, either voluntarily or on foot of a contractual commitment, to complete a period of service in the FLR. There is no set establishment for the FLR and its strength is dependent on recruitment policy and reserve commitments given voluntarily or on foot of contractual commitments. Members of the FLR are assigned to PDF Units for administrative purposes and serve in the rank which they held in the PDF. The FLR has not actively trained since 1987.

Cost of FLR gratuity between 2006 and 2011 varied between €54,000 and €74,000

[Sluggie]

Oh yeah. Your first term of service is NOT actually 5 years as some people think. It's 12.

5 years full time and 7 reserve. Some lad who left and went to try to join up in other Militaries before their 7 years reserve ran into difficulties.

Most would avoid the problem by buying themselves out of their FLR commitment when they apply for their discharge. It only costs about €30 I think.

[trellheim]

I have never in 35 years service seen FLR be utilized.

[na grohmiti]

Don't think it was even utilised during the border crisis.

[Auldsod]

Point taken, no question of it. My plan would be to replace the current reserve and all the recruiting and training issues, with a renewed first line reserve. Do your time, join civvy Street but commit to a term of say 5 years after where you return to do duties etc, for appropriate reward.
Do you think when you reach the end of term, you would be willing to give an extra 5 in reserve? I'm thinking in particular of those who leave in their late 30s. Steady hands, plenty of experience. Mate of mine gone in last few years left as a battery sergeant. All his experience went with him. Still a young and fit man.

Nice idea here but are we focusing more on the mechanics of how we deal with the FLR and SLR rather than how it would impact recruiting.

If a joiner had to commit to five years service in a renewed FLR with mandatory training, duties, etc - do we not think that would dissuade some from joining the PDF?

Whilst many want to join for a long a full career, there are plenty who just want to do five years and get out, cutting ties with the DF. In fact, many already leave well before that buying themselves out. Now if a renewed FLR included a buy out clause, would that not cripple such an initiative before it even began.

I think it's a great idea in principal but I just see such a long standing commitment to the DF turning plenty off. What if you want to move well away from a manned barracks or want to go foreign in the following number of years?

The British and US have their own variation of our FLR but the expectation is that you keep them up to date on your contact details in case you're reactivated. You don't have to attend regular reserve training,. Don't forget this actually happened to many at the time of the Iraq war and after.

Here's my idea.

FLR: Keep as is but make joining mandatory. No buy out but also no parading with the RDF required. Allow for easy mobility into the RDF in future years with provision for refresher training or reduction to a lower RDF rank if no posts available.
FLR Active Reserve: Similar to the above but parades and is part of the establishment of an RDF unit. FLR commitment remains. Potentially may require a reduced RDF only rank. A return of the grat would incentivise this for many.
SLR: The traditional reserve with joiners direct from civi street.

I'm aware that much of the above is already the case. Primary trust I have is making FLR mandatory and making the RDF more attractive to ex PDF.

(Waiting to be torn apart )

[DeV]

Nice idea here but are we focusing more on the mechanics of how we deal with the FLR and SLR rather than how it would impact recruiting.

If a joiner had to commit to five years service in a renewed FLR with mandatory training, duties, etc - do we not think that would dissuade some from joining the PDF?

Whilst many want to join for a long a full career, there are plenty who just want to do five years and get out, cutting ties with the DF. In fact, many already leave well before that buying themselves out. Now if a renewed FLR included a buy out clause, would that not cripple such an initiative before it even began.

I think it's a great idea in principal but I just see such a long standing commitment to the DF turning plenty off. What if you want to move well away from a manned barracks or want to go foreign in the following number of years?

The British and US have their own variation of our FLR but the expectation is that you keep them up to date on your contact details in case you're reactivated. You don't have to attend regular reserve training,. Don't forget this actually happened to many at the time of the Iraq war and after.

Here's my idea.

FLR: Keep as is but make joining mandatory. No buy out but also no parading with the RDF required. Allow for easy mobility into the RDF in future years with provision for refresher training or reduction to a lower RDF rank if no posts available.
FLR Active Reserve: Similar to the above but parades and is part of the establishment of an RDF unit. FLR commitment remains. Potentially may require a reduced RDF only rank. A return of the grat would incentivise this for many.
SLR: The traditional reserve with joiners direct from civi street.

I'm aware that much of the above is already the case. Primary trust I have is making FLR mandatory and making the RDF more attractive to ex PDF.

(Waiting to be torn apart )

The British recalled a lot of personnel to the colours so to speak for GW1 and it didn’t go swimmingly

Whatever happens FLR need to keep their rank that should be non-negotiable. That may require some to be supernumerary if they join the SLR.

First step should be to encourage people leave the PDF to:
(a) Straight not bureaucratic transfer to AR/NSR. Keep your uniform, attend new AR/NSR unit prior to discharge
(b) transfer to FLR (and use the FLR)


Next look at merging the FLR into the AR/NSR

[Bravo20]

Don't think it was even utilised during the border crisis.

I think they were. I remember one former FCA officer telling a story that involved him taking over a duty from a FLR officer

I have also heard tell that the NS used to make regular use of their FLR officers.

Of course all this is just hearsay

[ropebag]

The activation of the reserves - the equivalent here of the FlR - in the UK has a very mixed report card: we've had people who've happily slotted straight back in, as well as 'Operation Fat Boy', where people with a reserve liability simply don't turn up, don't give their contact details, or simply hit the pies and turn up to Chillwell weighing 25 stone and taking a week to run a mile and half - they got a 'medically unsuitable' chit, sent home, and never had to think about camping holidays in the sand ever again.

It's a 'nice to have'. It absolutely should never be relied upon - the force augmentation you can rely on are your reservists who turn up to regular training - there you will have a reasonable idea of how many and who will turn up, and what standard they'll be.

[Auldsod]

The British recalled a lot of personnel to the colours so to speak for GW1 and it didn’t go swimmingly

Whatever happens FLR need to keep their rank that should be non-negotiable. That may require some to be supernumerary if they join the SLR.

First step should be to encourage people leave the PDF to:
(a) Straight not bureaucratic transfer to AR/NSR. Keep your uniform, attend new AR/NSR unit prior to discharge
(b) transfer to FLR (and use the FLR)


Next look at merging the FLR into the AR/NSR

Agreed with most of the points. I believe rank should be non-negotiable for the FLR of course but I still think their may need to be potential parallel RDF rank.

Take what I'm familiar with - the NSR. The higher levels of the organisation would be swamped with even 2-3 Lt Cdrs or CPOs joining from the PDF.

Could you see an ex PDF Cdr (and wearing the rank) as XO of a unit with an RDF Lt Cdr as CO? Messy.

The British actually allow for rank reductions when transferring to the active reserve. Colonels down to Captains and WO1s down to Corporals.

All temporary as far as I know and smooths out ruffled feathers at the unit. Provision kept to revert to regular rank. Apparently the seniors are just happy to get down to more basic soldiering after years away from the coal face.