Representation

[DeV]

Combatlogo said, "Let's just say that some aspects of the Irish military appear foreign to me such as compensation and union representation...."

I'll try and explain "union representation". Hopefully, it will inlighten others as well.

Firstly, it isn't "union representation", just representation, unions have a right to strike, but the DF are not allowed to. PDFORRA, RACO, and RDFRA are not unions, they are Representative Associations.

PDFORRA - PDF Other Ranks Representative Association
RACO - Representative Association of Commissioned Officers
RDFRA - RDF Representative Association

They are statutory bodies recognised by the Government and subject to DF Regulations S7. They were set up to allow members of the DF to have influence on conditions of service that is not normally possible through the chain of command.

The following specifically relates to RDFRA.

Scope of Representation:
Renumeration (Pay, Allowance, Gratuity, Deductions)
Conditions of Service (Entry Criteria)
Performance Appraisals
Criteria for Promotion
Medical & Dental benefits following accidents on duty
Standards of training accomodiation
Procedures for Redress of Wrongs
Provision of Legal Representation
Application of Health & Safety at Work Act 1989
Retirement, Resignation, Discharge Procedures
Clothing & personal equipment (not weapons)
Recognition by other side bodies of qualifications
Amendments to Defence Act & DF Regulations

Outside the remit:
Operational Matters
Disciplinary Matters (RDFRA can only provide information, NOT advise)
Actual Promotions
Communications with the Press

Achievements:
Improved Clothing
60% increase in Gratuity over 5 years
Pay increases
Waiver of charges for substandard accomodiation
Driving courses for other than Cav & Tpt
Consultation on Reorganisation
Increase in Courses & mandays
Payment of Pay Arrears
Refunds for rations & quarters
Increase in messing allowance
Removal of embargo on promotions
Increase in officers' uniform allowance

Limitations:
Structure is based on "command" system
Offically, lowest port of call for RDFRA is GOC level, but that is a plus as well
No Consiliation & Arbitration scheme, unlike PDF associations, the DOD won't give it to RDFRA, because it would mean they would have to provide us with A *** OF A LOT MORE = $$$

I would encourage all members of the RDF to join RDFRA, find out who the committee are in your unit and tell them you want to join. If there is no committee in your unit, get involved with setting it up by contacting RDFRA.

THE MORE MEMBERS WE HAVE THE BETTER DEAL WE WILL GET.

[combatlogo]

Still utterly alien to me.....

[hedgehog]

Where the concept of representation for the Military may be alien to you combat logo - it works for us.
It works to our benefit and does not and has not affected our operational capability, saying all that,
we shouldnt have it, all the representative bodies are a testament to the fact that our senior officers have failed us- they failed and continue to fail to look after the welfare of their soldiers.
the old saying of attain the mission and look after your men- well our senior officers have consistently achieved the mission but consistently failed to look after us.
The only exception to this was Dave Stapleton who threatened to resign rather then accept any more cuts.
Can you imagine Colm Mangan threatening to resign over manpower cuts
If we had proper professional officers we wouldnt need representation.

That Combatlogo, maybe whats alien to you.

[Smithy]

So representation doesn't affect our operational capacity? What about the Air Corps and its operational effectiveness as regards SAR? That came about as a result of PDFORRA being allowed to interfere in operations. Unfortunately once you open the Pandora's box of "representation" you get that kind of result.
________
LINCOLN MKR

[FMolloy]

So representation doesn't affect our operational capacity? What about the Air Corps and its operational effectiveness as regards SAR? That came about as a result of PDFORRA being allowed to interfere in operations. Unfortunately once you open the Pandora's box of "representation" you get that kind of result.

That's bollox. The guys who went sick in Sligo did so of their own accord & for their own reasons. PDFORRA didn't push them into it.

[DeV]

Operational matters are outside the scope of representation.

[Smithy]

Operational matters are supposed to be outside the scope of representation. The aircrew wouldn't have chanced the concerted action of going "sick" if they didn't have the support of PDFORRA. The fact that the Air Corps chain of command hadn't the bottle to deal with it quickly in the first place exacerbated the situation. Representation works by nibbling away at the edges of forbidden topics. Thats the danger of it.
________
Flathead Engine

[FMolloy]

The aircrew wouldn't have chanced the concerted action of going "sick" if they didn't have the support of PDFORRA

They went sick, and as a result got redeployed. Through all this, PDFORRA did nothing as it was an operational matter. Hardly typical trade union behaviour.

These guys, who are highly decorated professionals, were in fear of their lives. They believed that inadequate equipment was putting them at risk, when they brought this to the attention of the brass they were ignored. 11 of them then put in for pre-discharge leave, this was denied.

So, with their lives on the line & no other option left open to them, they went sick. The only involvement PDFORRA had in Sligo was a pay claim that was withdrawn three weeks before the incident.

Their past achievements prove they are not cowards or malingerers, all they wanted was adequate tools for the job.

[DeV]

With regard to this:
https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...tus#post740116

I had thought that (full) Colonel’s weren’t represented by RACO, check S6 and they are

what is “newly drafted” “DFR 2/2022”???
Why isn’t it in the normal R, S, CS, A etc format ??

this new DFR states that the only DFRs that apply to the DMP are A9 (Dress) and A10 (Ceremonials)

Adjudication report:
https://opac.oireachtas.ie/knowvatio...brary7_lib,a=t

[irishrgr]

It's not a new concept. In the US, all the services have their own representative associations. For the Army we have Assoc. of the US Army (AUSA), National Guard Assoc. of the US, Reserve Officers Assoc, NCO Assoc. They are not in any way associated with any union (union in America is still a dirty word for some), but they lobby for their constituents, be it pay, allowances, equipment, budgets, housing. They all have lobbyists in DC and most state capitols, and they fight whatever corner they need to.

These organizations stay well away from operational matters, they don't get into that or personnel issues at all at the local level. No one goes to their AUSA rep for an issue or a grievance.

For the DF in Ireland, someone has to lobby, as clearly the govt. has no interest in the military and hasn't for many years. Ireland has no defense industrial base, no real vested interests other than an occasional TD who has a base in their constituency, so I say fair play to the associations. Given things in Ireland, the Assoc's are acting more like unions in that, the European Working Hours Directive seems to be near and dear to their hearts. However, given the shite pay and conditions, I can't say I blame them. I just hope they don't fall into a traditional union mentality and get tarred with that brush. (And note, I'm a lifetime union member, I am an advocate of them. Even if sometimes they can be a bit cranky.)

They have their place, just like any other professional association, a voice for their members. Nothing new here....move along!! :-)