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  • Ranges & PPE in the Butts.

    whats everyones thoughs on the general state of the ranges for the different units.

    I have done the butts in quite a few and think its high time the army replaced the pully system the british installed at the turn of the last century. Its a complete joke and very difficult to change targets. In the 21st century there is bound to be a better system out there and it should cost that much.


    I have yet to meet any bogs on the range and if someone needs to take a dump on the range it can be nasty.....

    Shouldnt we be using proper military targets not large A0 squares ?


  • #2
    Yes moving away from static targets to pop-up targets would be a good idea, like the SaabScania system. Obviously there would be difficulties actually building and running the ranges, but its a nice idea.

    What about something like the americans use (in the America's Army computer game anyway) - a set of a dozen pop-up targets in arc of fire, its a big snap shoot practice.

    Does anyone know if they use this in real-life?

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    • #3
      I think they are called mil-tec targets, they have them in Kilworth.
      Its an aluminium sheet with a soldiers silouette that pops up.
      Basically you shoot the s*?! out of the target til it goes back down.
      good family fun.
      It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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      • #4
        The Pulley Targets i dont have a major problem with, what they should change is the flag. The big red flag that you run up to, to put up and take down. I am very surprised no-ones been shot yet going up to take it down. That should be on a pulley, on a proper flag pole, and you put it up and down from the safety of the butts.
        ====================================
        Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
        ====================================

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        • #5
          Targets like those use at the moment are required for grouping & application practices, especially for recruits. They are easy to use, if maintained (greased on a regular basis), cheap, but are labour intensive!

          But I agree there is a need to move towards more realistic "field firing" (eg Saab Scania). Thats what Stages 4 & 5 of the Steyr ARP are:

          Stage 4: Individual fire & manoever
          Stage 5: Basically a live fire section attack

          But I currently don't know of any RDF unit that do these. While the PDF Infantry & Combat Support units have to do it annually.
          Last edited by DeV; 20 July 2004, 14:40.

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          • #6
            The targets on the existing range, dont fit particularly well into the pully system currently in use. They have a tendency to jam when your raising the targets. Also some of the pully systems are clearly past their sell by date, either the army service them or install new ones !

            he big red flag that you run up to, to put up and take down. I am very surprised no-ones been shot yet going up to take it down. That should be on a pulley, on a proper flag pole, and you put it up and down from the safety of the butts.
            Good point, I agree completely. A Simply pully system at the buts should be installed. (With preferable new red flags!!), its something simple but completly lacking.

            But I agree there is a need to move towards more realistic "field firing" (eg Saab Scania). Thats what Stages 4 & 5 of the Steyr ARP are:
            Exactly, firing at a large A0 target is fine for recruits but pretty unrealistic for military training. I have seen some british and U.S army ranges on T.V and they have a far larger open expanse of terain for the range where they can easily conduct indiviual soldier fire and manoever.

            I dont think the ranges have changed since the british were using their rifles. A lot of the ranges seem quite narrow width wise, rectangle in shape. They can only be used to fire from one end to the other.

            The DF should build a extensive saab scania providing targets of oppurtunity at different ranges at least one of the ranges.
            The targets should be solid metal plates in the shape of a solider ranging from 160 degrees from 50meters to 350meters.

            Ive fired the Saab Scania and when you hit the target it doesnt go down first time, and your using a different round. The target should go down first time and the solider should be using conventional 5.56.

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            • #7
              The SAAB Scania courses use frangible rounds to reduce the risk of over-penatration (the round going straight through the target). Over-penetration not only poses a potential threat to life, it could also result in targets not getting knocked down.
              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

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              • #8
                I've seem many a smock get wrecked by the grease on the targets pulley system. There's a good reason to get rid of them.

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                • #9
                  ranges

                  In the US we use a pop up type range for Annual Weapons Qualification. Silouttes pop up at distances from 50 to 400 meters in a "sort of" random order. You hit the target, it goes down. It's a timed evolution with one and two targets popping up. The better ranges are computer controlled, older (read: Reserve unit ones) are manually popped up by the bloke in the tower using switches. Prior to qualification, you shoot 25M paper targets to confirm zero, then 20 rounds in the foxhole and 20 rounds in the prone. Depending on your unit, you also may get to fire with gas mask and at night. Minimum is above, same as recruits joining the Army. It's an OK system, but there is no "shoot and move", no distractions like noise and smoke, moving targets etc.

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                  • #10
                    I've seem many a smock get wrecked by the grease on the targets pulley system.
                    Mine included!

                    irishrgr, looks like you have a decent number of ranges. We dont have anything like that here:( pop up targets either by human or computer is a great deal more realistic than stationary targets.

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                    • #11
                      Nach fheidir na Maoldomnaigh a uasaid i gcomhait tairgeidi? Is fheidir iad a bhogaidh agus ta siad "expendable"

                      MOD: Cop on amadan.

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                      • #12
                        as berla por favor

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                        • #13
                          Fecking E coy types! Stop giving the 20Bn a bad name! :D

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                          • #14
                            The ranges need some form of covered shelters at the main firing points to allow for waiting details, toilets, registration, admin and register. Even containers would do, saves time putting up tents.

                            All the firing points should be permanently connected with the Butts by a simple phone system (eg field telephone).

                            There should be proper fences around the range to keep the sheep out.

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                            • #15
                              Should the army not invest what limted financial resources they have into purchasing some new equipment. The force that were recently deployed to Liberia, a lot of those soliders had to purchase pices of kit that they needed but could not get issued. Those soliders got fogged off with the crapiest of sunglass/goggles.. That is just an example that comes to mind.

                              To build and maintain a system SAAB Scania course would cost a lot of money. A firing range is another asset that is expensive and see little finincial return. Obviously it has major return in people being qualified to shoot. etc etc.

                              The conditions in the butts maybe a bit rough, you were are meant to soliders, not friggin boyscouts.So its a bit rough deal with it.

                              qutoe

                              The targets on the existing range, dont fit particularly well into the pully system currently in use. They have a tendency to jam when your raising the targets.

                              They fit fine. If they jam its coz u failed to apply equal pressure. This system was inheritted from the Britts, it is almost solider proof, and does not require a degree to the throw up the targets with out gettin them jammed.

                              I've seem many a smock get wrecked by the grease on the targets pulley system. There's a good reason to get rid of them.---thats just from people being careless.. if ur smock gets ruined use the chain of command get another one. then u have 2,1 for tactics one for parade..is that such a big deal. The other side to this coin is that the FCA clothing budget has been cut so unless you are going on a course, well you can ask but expect a delay..

                              Some one made a valid point about the toilet situation, i agree with that one, that is a disgrace there should be some facilities at/near each range.

                              i think Dev mad some good points to....

                              but again sheltering firing points...soliders are meant to be able to deal with all weather conditions.

                              I think some people hear need to grow and except the fact that privates and cpls have to spend time in the butts...big deal..

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