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  • All Work & No Play.

    Alcohol is required for socialising why?

    And when you have extremely limited training time, that training should be from 07-00 to 23-59. Quitting at 4-30, or 7pm may be normal practice, but it entails a huge waste of an extremely limited resource.
    Take these men and women for your example.
    Like them, remember that posterity can only
    be for the free; that freedom is the sure
    possession of those who have the
    courage to defend it.
    ***************
    Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
    ***************
    If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

  • #2
    training should be from 07-00 to 23-59
    So you're advocating working troops for 17 hours out of 24?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

    Comment


    • #3
      Did you cover Labour laws and the maximum working hours when you were in lawer school?


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #4
        the human body is not a machine, it needs time for R&R even within a one week course.

        I don't think people should be drinking during the week, but knocking off work at 2000 or so, having an hour to get kit together, an hour to chill out/ have a coke in the mess, and discuss the day's training/prepare for lessons makes sense to me.

        Even when doing RDF courses, I have had an evening or two totally free as it means more knowledge gets absorbed.

        On camps, most people should be doing a 24/48 hour exercise, preparing for that doesnt leave much time for getting hammered - leave that for the last night.

        Comment


        • #5
          Goldie, Labour Laws don't apply to the Defence Forces. Which is why a soldier can be ordered, say, to spend three days in an OP somewhere near the border in the pissing rain watching someone's house. I just made that up, but I'm sure it rings true with a couple of the PDF types on this board. I'm sure you got some shitty jobs and hours when you were a garda?

          Kermit, agreed if the syllabus is taught within the time frame, there is no problem with R&R (Also agreed I learned a whole lot of shite from my limited four years of experience as a part time soldier- that's why I left). But it's a pretty big syllabus, and a week is a very small amount of time. Would you suppose that a week is long enough to teach someone how to be a soldier? Have you never bitched about lack of training time. Have you bitched about it in the mess.

          FMolloy, yes I would advocate working troops 17 hours out of 27 for all of seven days. If it's a two week camp, a half day could be considered. Maximum outcomes from scarce resources are the name of the game, and if this kind of training schedule is ok for 14 days on a POts cse, why is it somehow objectionable for everyone else for seven days?

          Is it so important to everyone that getting pissed for a week on camp is an option? And if so, who's surprised if PDF treat with a lack of respect?
          Take these men and women for your example.
          Like them, remember that posterity can only
          be for the free; that freedom is the sure
          possession of those who have the
          courage to defend it.
          ***************
          Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
          ***************
          If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

          Comment


          • #6
            JAG even on my pots course i didnt work 17 hours out of 24 for 14 days solid. What I am saying is that the mind and body absorb things better if they have a bit of variety. This may mean a game of footy in the evening, an evening in the mess, whatever. I remember the whole course breaking into a fit of giggles for no reason (pln cdr included), a sign of nerves/tiredness/whatever. Nobody is arguing for being out on the beer but one or two pints can help you unwind.

            In civilian life if I have an important meeting or important game, I will make sure I am well rested so that I am at peak performance. I don't see why the DF should be that different. Exercises of course are a different matter. But we also realise that people are giving up holidays to train with the DF and want them to come back.

            If training time is in such short supply, put on another training weekend during the year.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JAG
              I'm sure you got some shitty jobs and hours when you were a garda?
              Yes..We called it SUB, and OVERTIME



              FMolloy, yes I would advocate working troops 17 hours out of 27 for all of seven days. If it's a two week camp, a half day could be considered. Maximum outcomes from scarce resources are the name of the game, and if this kind of training schedule is ok for 14 days on a POts cse, why is it somehow objectionable for everyone else for seven days?
              Taking the average student layabout who has probably never worked more than a part time job in his life and imposing a 17 hour day on him,no matter how motivated he is,will probably not see his return after recruit training. Even the PDF are taking a softly softly approach to new recruits for the initial weeks of training. However imposing the same hours on a person on a Pots course is a different situation..they know what to expect,and they are willing to put up with the extra training,for the required end result..STRIPES(Power trip).


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Training from 07-00 to 23-59 doesn't necessarily mean shouting and screaming and marching all day. Neither does training need to be unpleasant.

                Trainign videos? Adventure training? Building team spirit?
                Take these men and women for your example.
                Like them, remember that posterity can only
                be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                possession of those who have the
                courage to defend it.
                ***************
                Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                ***************
                If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Even while on the POTS course we got a day off. Which was well deserved ill have you know. We also got one lecture a day to brreak it up, which was nice when you are doing around 15 section attacks a day for 7 days.
                  Oh yeah, and they let us into the mess during the 2 weeks. They were showing us the important of resting the troops. Best lesson I ever had.
                  If your not in bed by 4 o' clock it's time to go home!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Him in charge has certain objectives.

                    One of which is to complete the training.

                    To do this, all 24 hours in every day belong to the guy in charge.

                    How he spends these is up to him. Rest is a judgment call; normally it's an easy one, sometimes it's not.

                    A spotty 17 year old(normally ) needs a hard shock. They also need to know how to do a stag and all sorts of other tiring things that they would not normally do. They must be able to do these stag duties without the constant eye of the commander [ i.e. out in an OP for example ] . If you get these habits in early it works out better later.

                    Fatigue management.

                    If you manage it right, you can get far more done than you think. But you must keep an eye on the troops.

                    R&R has a tremendous value; some people put too much emphasis on it.
                    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "R&R has a tremendous value; some people put too much emphasis on it."

                      you hit the nail on the head trellheim.

                      IMHO recruits should be allowed in the mess to get mars bars and soft drinks but not to stay in the mess more than 15 mins, no booze at all until the last night and then at the course commanders dicretion ie its a reward for a hard weeks work.

                      NCOs should not abuse the mess as its leads to poor instruction the following day.

                      The mess should be seen as a privilege and one that can revoked if abused.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: [MOD: Split from Recruit Camp Thread.]

                        Originally posted by JAG
                        Alcohol is required for socialising why?
                        My thoughts exactly..
                        True soldiers don't scurry for their reward..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Taking the average student layabout who has probably never worked more than a part time job in his life and imposing a 17 hour day on him,no matter how motivated he is,will probably not see his return after recruit training. Even the PDF are taking a softly softly approach to new recruits for the initial weeks of training. However imposing the same hours on a person on a Pots course is a different situation..they know what to expect,and they are willing to put up with the extra training,for the required end result..STRIPES(Power trip).
                          If someone can't sustained 17 hr days for as short a period as 2 weeks then personally I don't know if i'd want them serving beside me in any capacity. It only requires a basic level of determination afterall.

                          You don't need to be training for the full 17 hours, but the recruits should be kept working (i.e. personal admin) for the full period of the day when they're not training. Most armies in the world work their recruits who come straight out of civvie street this hard.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So you're advocating working troops for 17 hours out of 24?

                            Cushy bastard.:D

                            Did you cover Labour laws and the maximum working hours when you were in lawer school?

                            They don't apply to the DF. Can't have lads clocking out of the trenches at 1700.

                            Yes..We called it SUB, and OVERTIME

                            Oh yes. I'm all for that.:D

                            Lads you all have a point. Lots of RDF types see camp as an excuse to do a bit of peer bonding and go on the tear for a week or two. Realistically speaking, if the purpose is to turn out a functioning reserve, the RDF is trying to turn out in a few weeks, the same product that takes months in the PDF. In which case it's nose to the grindstone for the couple of weeks military training.
                            sigpic
                            Say NO to violence against Women

                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            My favourite moment was when the
                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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                            • #15
                              "If someone can't sustained 17 hr days for as short a period as 2 weeks then personally I don't know if i'd want them serving beside me in any capacity."

                              If you start putting recruits on 17 hour days they're not going to take in what your trying to teaching them. They're also going to start loosing stuff as soon as it's handed out to them. You have to remember they're recruits you have break them in reasonably to army life.

                              The only situtation I can see that warrants a 17hr+ day is where your doing tacticle training where your trying to improve endurance and test your troops under stress. What's the saying (Train Hard Fight Easy).

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