First Aid on the ground.

[EagleEye]

As a qualified Rescue Diver and Medic First Aider, i always carry a pocket mask for use in CPR situation in the water as normal mouth to mouth is near impossible unless their are two person in the water to support the victim or the water is totally still with no surf. With regard to CPR, i myself who carry out CPR without any barrier is the situation arose, this is just me, but i couldn't stand by and do nothing if i knew i could improve a person chances or survival.

[yellowjacket]

How I see it,
All first aiders should carry a CPR barrier, either a pocket mask or a more compact (but less effective) vent-aid. The risks for infection from CPR aren't massive, but they do exist. It's the same reason you wear gloves.

In a situation where you were without a barrier device and had to decide to do CPR or not, then it's a choice you have to make. Unless a clear risk existed (e.g. a junkie with a mouth covered in open sores or similar), I suspect most people would go down the cpr road. (Improvised devices, e.g. a plastic bag are still an option of course.)

A vent-aid takes no training to use, a pocket mask takes training, but if used properly is more effective than a BVM.

FURTHER READING

What CPR barriers are: http://www.prolinetraining.com/barriers/cpr_devices.htm

CPR infection risks: http://www.gmcc.ab.ca/nw/hsfacentral...seasetrans.htm ,

All about CPR: http://www.resus.org.uk/siteindx.htm#medical

[The Joker]

What you are saying make perfect sence but as an RDF medic, I have never come across this. I have never even seen one I our stores, who's fault that is I dont know.

[Boomer]

HAve you ever heard that Health and Safety is everyones concern?

I.e. if its not there and you should have it complain to your superiors!

Shane

[medic]

The point of a BVM is to supply supplimental oxygen to the patient so it should be used in conjunction with o2 where poss. In this regard yellow jacket it most certainly is much better than a pocket mask

[yellowjacket]

Most pocket masks have an O2 inlet.
Pocket masks are easier to use correctly than BVM's. (One study showed more than half of the paramedics tested were unable to deliver adequate ventilation volumes with them. The majority could with pocket masks.)

[medic]

Please enlighten me as to what study this was, where it was done, when it was done and who carried it out. Using a BVM is little more than a Basic First Aid skill. If you can't deliver ventilations with a BVM the odds are you won't deliver them with a pocket mask as it has more to do with maintaining a patent airway than anything else

[yellowjacket]

Since you asked,:D

Hess D. Baran C; Ventilation Volumes Using Mouth-to Mouth, Mouth-to Mask and Bag-Valve Techniques. Am J Med 1985; 3:292-296.

Standards and Guidelines for Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Emergency Cardiac Care. JAMA 1986;225:2905-2960.

Elling R, Politis J; An Evaluation of Emergency Medical Technicians' Ability to use Manual Ventilation Devices. Ann Emer Med Services 1982;7:44-46.

Harrison RR, Maul KI, et.al; Mouth-to Mask Ventilation: A Superior Method of Rescue Breathing. Ann Emer Med 1982;11:74-76.

Augustine JA, Seidel DR, McCabe JB; Ventilation Performance Using a Self-Inflating Anesthesia Bag. Am J. Emer Med 1982;11:74-76.

An Irish study

http://www.imj.ie/news_detail.php?nNewsId=2608&nVolId=100

has a detailed study of this subject in the Irish setting. It shows that that a large amount of experience is needed to effectively operate BVMs, and that most Irish EMT's are indeed well capable of doing so. (This was not the case in the American studies above, and in other more recent studies quoted in the above link) It doesn't give much confidence in the ability of anaesthetists to do so......


Anyway, this is all going a bit technical, and fairly off-topic.

[medic]

Given the dates you listed I think you should be aware that at the time there were no EMT's in this country.

As regards America the problem is that every state has it's own level of training and certification.

While I am not argueing the point with you, I think (and hope) you would agree that things have come on a bit since the early eighties.

Getting back to topic. I find it fairly disturbing that whether to use a Bvm over a pocket mask is being discussed by RDF medics. Surely there are protocols in place.

[The Joker]

Was actually looking for a seperate thread and came accross this thread.

Just an update with regards to the equipment 4 years on!

Still have never been issued barrier devices, they are simply not in the stores!

Numerious times last year I had to use my OWN personal medical gear/equipment on people because the DF does not provide them. Not too long ago I went into the stores to organise equipment for an upcoming camp. I was looking for hand held suction units and BVM's, there were none there. I asked that a req be put in for them and I was told "You probably wont get that", I then explained that because we didnt have any that I would have to use my own equipment....The reply...."Well what ever you want to do yourself"

Its a sad state of affairs really...

[The Joker]

Actually I went looking for equipment that we never had in the stores before and was told "You cant just ask for stuff like that, it has to be on the forms"

[Goldie fish]

Are leeches still on the inventory then?

[The Joker]

HAHA.....Some of the stuff you would have no problem getting are;

Preperation H
Forans Cough mixture
Calimine lotion

Hardly stuff suitable for an emergency medical kit!

[Scout]

Hope First Aid procedures have improved since the last time I saw a potentially serious injury. Some gobshite went head first over a wall during an ambush exercise at Kilbride, landing heavily on his shoulder. Luckily one of our number was a nurse, but unluckily (for the casualty) he was told to stand back by the PDF bod and let the guy who had done a course lasting a few weekends with the medics treat the casualty. Coz the nurse had n't done the army course, he could n't treat anybody despite his professional skills, fear of lawyers and all that.

i would agree with this
i have come accross doctors who had't a clue how to deal with the injury and i was in that situation more qualified,
and I have trained nureses in First aid

If I had no BVM or vent aid then I would still carry out CPR. But I would have to judge if I thought he was infected then no. But I would make a judgement call. We were trained to use a BVM by ourself as a 1 man team. the only difference is that you do over head CPR rather that from the side.

can you tell me how to do this? please!

yea, its quite easy when you have the correct training. A quick point for yellow jacket, there is no point in having a vent aid or CPR shield in your first aid bag, because you have to know how to carry out CPR properly, medics are trained to do it without the vent aid, I you attempt to do CPR on somebody who has a pulse even a weak one, you will kill them. I know this for a fact because i am a medic. Just thought I would tell you before you went out and bought one!

see new protocalls

Speaking strictly as a member of the Red Cross in Limerick, out on duties we carry both BVMs and Vent Aids but although it is desirable to carry Vent Aids everywhere with you, its not going to happen so plain mouth to mouth is what we base a lot of our CPR around, at least up until advanced, then more emphasis is placed on the use of BVMs etc,

where the F$^% are you in the Red cRoss , cause i know for a FACT limerick train with Barier devices...
please tell me the name of you rtrainer and i'll talk to them about it