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  • A7

    I was wondering do you feel confident enough in your unit to use the system and coc with regards to A7.
    33
    Yes I have good faith in A7 and my units chain of command
    81.82%
    27
    I dont think I know enough about A7 to be able to use it properly
    9.09%
    3
    Complain, whats the point? Its not enough
    9.09%
    3
    Factories dont burn themselves down, they need help from people like you and me.

  • #2
    Well in the PDF there's currently a bit of a fracas concerning bullying leading to the odd and serious move of a training platoon being taken off a unit because the NCO's went "a bit wild". Obviously I wouldn't like to say which unit where until we have RTE screaming about it, but a relation of mine is in the platoon and from what I've heard it is pretty serious, though the fact that they've taken steps such as this probably goes to show that the likes of deepcut is having positive effects over here as well, as the army obviously knows comparisons would be made.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by PTE bog
      I was wondering do you feel confident enough in your unit to use the system and coc with regards to A7.
      The same could not apply in an RDF unit. Different organisations, different ethos.

      However if you are asking if you feel confident enough to complain about A7 breaches to your chain of command, I would hope so. Then again, I am one of those who would be hearing the complaints not making them.

      I feel there would not be a problem in my unit.

      Comment


      • #4
        The softly softly ethos in the DF as a whole is a step too far in the other direction, people are soft enough without being mollycoddled.
        Of course now thanks to those mental cases at deepcut with their interesting variations on the grand old game of darts we can expect things to keep moving into the wet.
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Come-quickly
          The softly softly ethos in the DF as a whole is a step too far in the other direction, people are soft enough without being mollycoddled.
          I disagree. As reported in the "Response to Challenge of a workplace 2004", many in the army do not understand A7 legislation and have erred on the side of extreme caution. If you read A7, it is probably not the clearest document in wording but, with study, shows that many of the myths that exist about A7 are not true. I have heard lectures on A7 that were completely opposite to what A7 actually said.

          People need to sit down and actually read the document, read it and study it. It is freely available on military.ie. A lot of what I have heard about A7 is makey-uppy by people who have panicked about the document.

          A7 is a robust document that is very well researched and progressive. However it has not been communicated properly. Much of what I have said is in "Response to Challenge of a workplace 2004".

          http://www.military.ie/pr/publications.htm

          Comment


          • #6
            Part of the problem is some NCOs and officers (especially RDF) are a bit reluctant to take training to the level that it should be at, in case they leave themselves open to letigation. Thats understandable .. but we need to use common sense and be familiar with the document.

            Comment


            • #7
              It seems there is definitly a problem with interpretation of A7 which only time and experience will sort out. From my lowly point as a private, it seems that without doubt there are problems with it being too soft, especially with, no disrespect to many of 'em, females & crap soldiers. I mean my unit is one of the best & one of the many reasons for this and one of the reasons outsider privates hate some of our NCO's is because it's fairly strict discipline by comparison to others. Having said that though, A7 is vital, without it being brought in when it was I believe the viability of the DF itself may have been at stake. The people who volunteer for military are perfectly entitled to work in a bully/harrassment free atmosphere and thats the way it should be. There will always be problems with something like A7 because of the way different people react to different things, driven especially by the environment they're from. I mean I've no problem an NCO sceaming at me that i'm a stupid f*****g c**t when I cock up, but if the same NCO came up and whispered quietly to me in the queen's english that I was acting the bollox or doing something wrong I hadn't been doing wrong, then personally I'd find that much more insulting...

              Comment


              • #8
                Huh???

                Youd rather he verbally abused you like that?

                My unit has very good NCOs, 14 of us just got our 2 stars and we paraded for a public audience in the barracks last week after 2 months of intensive training, (particularly footdrill to prepare for the passing out parade), TOETs and shooting.

                Many privates sacrificed 4 whole weekends to get the marching weapons and formation display just perfect, needless to say it was an enlightening experience for our families and friends who attended as they got to see some of the training and the environment under which we work voluntarily. That was a long time to be ordered around by Cpls and a Sgt.

                The NCOs are to some degree scary, they have to be, they always keep a professional distance, even when socialising, its an unkown element that keeps the rest of us on edge.

                They have never once used language like the above, they dont have to, they command respect because they are good leaders, they know their stuff and communicate it to us very well.

                Of course they shout and scream at us, nothing wrong there, it keeps us in line and concentrating, but ive never experienced a torrent of abuse thrown at anyone, no matter how stupid or dumb they were.

                If someone called me a dumb f*cking c*nt in front of the platoon, id not be best pleased, they obviously have a serious problem if they have to resort to that kind of crap and id prob stay pissed at them for a long long time.

                If however a disgruntled NCO shouted at me that i wasnt concentrating, and i was making the rest of us look like idiots because i was out of line, and if he did it in front of everyone else, id be majorly embarrassed but also damn sure i didnt do it again. Its a much better approach. Also, never seen physical abuse at any time either and should hope i never do, unless its to the enemy of course .
                "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yeh I fully agree with what your saying. Maybe I didnt make myself very clear, what I meant was to try and emphasise the way everyone reacts differently, I for one dont mind taking shit for what I've done wrong but it has to be fair. I fully agree with the notion that its far worst to be told that you let the team done etc etc

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If an instructor in any subject has to resort to intimidation of any sort to get a point accross,then they have failed as an instructor.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The problem is more in the PDF than the RDF, as in there the NCO's have the recruits in their hands 24/7 and there is a certain problem, I believe, of chaps coming two weeks out of the depot with their stripes and thinking their demi-Gods. As one sergeant in the PDF I know told me you're supposed to go hard on the recruits, scream at them and so on, but there's a reason for it, and when the NCO's don't know why they're doing it they don't know when to draw the line.

                      In the end it begs the question, is the recruit in the NCO's care, or does the NCO own the recruit?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Shouting and abuse is useful in certain aspects of training to put pressure on, although its not the only way, it should never be aimed at individuals or specified.
                        People who can't switch it off and provide a reasuring side to their troops are defective.
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ther is a new working document (training instruction) just after been published, that deals with what the powers of an instructor are during a course of instruction, these will be applicable to all persons who come under military law,
                          they give such nuggets as, some form of physcial activity is allowable as a mild punishment, essay writing and that kind of shite
                          it is actually a good document and for the life of me i cant remember the name of it, and i only read it last week( getting old and it must have been all that licking my mess tin)
                          it should allay a lot of fears and educate a few as well

                          more to follow
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Alf
                            Well in the PDF there's currently a bit of a fracas concerning bullying leading to the odd and serious move of a training platoon being taken off a unit because the NCO's went "a bit wild". Obviously I wouldn't like to say which unit where until we have RTE screaming about it, but a relation of mine is in the platoon and from what I've heard it is pretty serious, though the fact that they've taken steps such as this probably goes to show that the likes of deepcut is having positive effects over here as well, as the army obviously knows comparisons would be made.
                            Well done Alf. Irish Military Online to banner headline on the front page of the Irish Star in two days.
                            Take these men and women for your example.
                            Like them, remember that posterity can only
                            be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                            possession of those who have the
                            courage to defend it.
                            ***************
                            Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                            ***************
                            If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JAG
                              Well done Alf. Irish Military Online to banner headline on the front page of the Irish Star in two days.
                              Would you rather it be swept under the square?
                              Support the Search Function.

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