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  • Military police jurisdiction

    Originally posted by FMolloy
    Did Naval personnel not attend a provost course during the year so they could do their own MP stuff?
    Naval MP at work(would he be a PO/PA?)


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  • #2
    What rank is that guy? Is he enlisted or commissioned? The red band on the cap makes
    it look remarkably like the dress uniform cap of a Royal Marine.

    Originally posted by Goldie Fish
    Naval MP at work(would he be a PO/PA?)
    Would he not be an SP (Shore Patrol)? I think that's what the US and Royal Navies
    call theirs....
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    • #3
      We are not the US or royal Navy. He is a Petty officer. Similar to a Sergeant(but by no means the same). Shore patrol is not always an MP task.
      Some time ago members of the NS,when drinking in Cobh,were being targeted by local youths for intimidation and assault. It is said that the introduction of a shore patrol,with the co-operation of the GS in Cobh,put an end to this difficulty.
      Military police have no Jurisdiction outside the military environment,ie,after duty hours,off base.
      The shore patrol is there to get those back to the base before the Civil authorities have to deal with them. Then the Military police take over....


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #4
        You are wrong in saying that Military Police have no jurisdiction outside the military environment. While this statement would be largely true for the RDF, PDF personnel are subject to Military Law at all times and Military Police can deal with breaches of Military or indeed Civil Law by PDF personnel at any time and place.
        ________
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        Last edited by Smithy; 9 March 2011, 13:52.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Smithy
          You are wrong in saying that Military Police have no jurisdiction outside the military environment. While this statement would be largely true for the RDF, PDF personnel are subject to Military Law at all times and Military Police can deal with breaches of Military or indeed Civil Law by PDF personnel at any time and place.
          Bets?
          Take these men and women for your example.
          Like them, remember that posterity can only
          be for the free; that freedom is the sure
          possession of those who have the
          courage to defend it.
          ***************
          Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
          ***************
          If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JAG
            Bets?
            I'm inclined to go along with you on this one Jag....

            But then again,what would we Know....you are only a scumbag lawyer,and I'm only an ex cop....


            Back on topic.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't bet on certainties.
              ________
              MEDICAL MARIJUANA STRAINS
              Last edited by Smithy; 9 March 2011, 13:52.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Smithy
                You are wrong in saying that Military Police have no jurisdiction outside the military environment. While this statement would be largely true for the RDF, PDF personnel are subject to Military Law at all times and Military Police can deal with breaches of Military or indeed Civil Law by PDF personnel at any time and place.
                That includes PDF personnel in their own homes as well.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, though of course there are restrictions on the the forceable entry into civilian homes just as there are restrictions on the Gardai. However the fact that a soldier is in his own home does not mean that he is not subject to Military Law as he is to Civil Law.
                  ________
                  INTERCEPTOR
                  Last edited by Smithy; 9 March 2011, 13:52.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Smithy
                    I don't bet on certainties.
                    Good call. Never make bets on constitutional issues with someone who has a copy of the Constitution on their windows desktop which is consulted a few times a week.

                    Bunreacht na hEireann Article 38.4.2

                    "A member of the Defence Forces not on active service shall not be tried by any courtmartial or other military tribunal for an offence cognisable by the civil courts unless such offence is within the jurisdiction of any courtmartial or other military tribunal under any law for the enforcement of military discipline."

                    In other words, unless you are overseas or their is an actual war or invasion, you can only be done for offences which are only offences under military law, unless you choose otherwise. In practice, a military conviction will avoid a civilian conviction which may require dishonourable discharge from the DF (not to mention barring you from Gardai, civil service and other careers for life), so I know which I'd choose.

                    Oh, and police don't have jurisdiction. Courts have jurisdiction. Police have authority. One allows you to do things, the other allows you to decide what to do. Subtle difference.

                    Going into someone's home to arrest them without a valid warrant properly issued by a judge is what leads to court proceedings for trespass, assault, battery and false imprisonment. Not big, and not clever, and not a good career move when the Minister is writing a cheque for €20k.

                    Finally, Civil Law is effectively Napoleonic Law, and simply put is extensively codified law which the courts administer. There are fewer blanks in the law so judicial activity is more administrative in nature. It's the primary legal system on mainland Europe, but is basically unknown in Britain and it's former colonies/British Commonwealth- what we have is common law, for reasons even more boring than the above. Civilian law, on the other hand, is law applicable to civilians.
                    Take these men and women for your example.
                    Like them, remember that posterity can only
                    be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                    possession of those who have the
                    courage to defend it.
                    ***************
                    Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                    ***************
                    If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Doesn't military law include the offence of "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" or words to similar effect, which is pretty much a cover-all?
                      .
                      .
                      .
                      With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                      Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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                      • #12
                        Active service for a PDF guy? Wouldn't that be 24 hours a day? He is always in service, just not always on duty? Aren't soldiers subject to military law at all times in all places?

                        To clarify a point made earler...in US Navy, their version of MP's are called Master-at-Arms (MA's). Shore Patrol (SP) as explained by Goldie are just any old sailors who are assigned the duty to drive the drunk-wagon!!!

                        Later.
                        No-one, I think, is in my tree...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Doesn't military law include the offence of "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" or words to similar effect, which is pretty much a cover-all?


                          Yes. DFR A7 Sec 168. But if you nail someone for murdering a PW, you might want to do a little more research.

                          Also it's a get out for an NCO. For instance you might have to charge a man who was mildly insubordinate. Now insubordination is a court-martial job, but no CO is ever going to thank you for drawing a court martial on his unit unnecessarily. So you do the bugger under 168. It's also easier to prove a 168.
                          Last edited by Groundhog; 15 December 2004, 23:03.
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                          • #14
                            In military terms Civil Law is the term used to distinguish the law that applies to all from Military Law.

                            As to whether an offence under Civil Law can be tried by Courtmartial I would refer you to Sec 169 of the Defence Act 1954 as amended. It says:
                            169.?Subject to the provisions of this Act, every person who, whilst he is subject to military law, commits any of the offences referred to in this section shall be deemed to be guilty of an offence against military law, and if charged under this section with any such offence (in this Act referred to as a civil offence) shall be liable to be tried by court-martial, and on conviction to be punished as follows, that is to say:?

                            ( a ) if he is convicted of treason, be liable to suffer death;

                            ( b ) if he is convicted of murder, be liable to suffer death;

                            ( c ) if he is convicted of manslaughter, be liable to suffer penal servitude or any less punishment awardable by a court-martial; .

                            ( d ) if he is convicted of rape, be liable to suffer penal servitude or any less punishment awardable by a court-martial;

                            ( e ) if he is convicted of any offence not before in this section particularly specified, which when committed in the State is punishable by the ordinary criminal law of the State, be liable, whether the offence is committed in the State or elsewhere, either to suffer any punishment assigned for such offence by the law of the State or, if he is subject to military law as an officer, dismissal with ignominy from the Defence Forces or any less punishment awardable by a court-martial or, if he is subject to military law as a man, imprisonment or any less punishment awardable by a court-martial.
                            I agree with you that entering a home by force without a search warrant is not a good career move - read my last.
                            If you want to know who is subject to Military Law and when, read Sections 118 and 119 of the Defence Act. They are a bit too long to quote here.
                            ________
                            N02 Vaporizer
                            Last edited by Smithy; 9 March 2011, 13:52.

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                            • #15
                              In the British forces eg the army you are governed by Queen Regulations and the Army Act 1955. The British military have the "double whammy" system. If you commit a civil crime eg speeding and are charged and taken to a civil court and subsequently found guilty. The forces also charge you with the same crime and are punished twice, a record is kept for a certain period of time -depending of the crime , usually 1 year - this is brought out every time that person is up for promotion, in some cases it will prevent promotion.

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