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  • €31,500 damages for mortar blast injuries

    Re: http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/b...4361#post74361

    My understanding of this incident was that the loader was at fault...

    Why is the dF getting sued?

    J

  • #2
    An employer is also responsible for the actions of its employees (JAG will give the correct legal definition of this). Also I would be careful listening to rumours, you heard it was the loader's fault and I heard it was faulty ammunition.

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    • #3
      Who evers fault it was is a minor issue. This shows that what we do can be lethal and that a holiday camp attitude can cause serious injuries and/or be fatal to you or those around you.
      Sex - Breakfast of Champions!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by jeebus
        Re: http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/b...4361#post74361

        My understanding of this incident was that the loader was at fault...

        Why is the dF getting sued?

        J
        Your understanding is wrong.
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        Say NO to violence against Women

        Originally posted by hedgehog
        My favourite moment was when the
        Originally posted by hedgehog
        red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bravo20
          An employer is also responsible for the actions of its employees (JAG will give the correct legal definition of this). Also I would be careful listening to rumours, you heard it was the loader's fault and I heard it was faulty ammunition.
          Again, wrong which just leaves the......
          sigpic
          Say NO to violence against Women

          Originally posted by hedgehog
          My favourite moment was when the
          Originally posted by hedgehog
          red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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          • #6
            No-one really cares, but anyway:

            Any person is responsible for his own actions, and those of his employees, servants and agents. This is called vicarious liability, and it's effect is to prevent, for example, the DF claiming in a case such as this "the Minister for Defence and the GOC did nothing wrong, it was all the fault of Pte X, for whom we cannot be responsible"

            Inadequate training and equipment in dealing with high explosives WILL (not might, but WILL) inevitably lead to death and serious injury. The outcome is forseeable, and preventative measures are obvious.

            Someone in the team may be directly to blame, but the key issue here is that the Defence Forces has a budget of about €1 Billion. Pte Bog, who may be directly responsible for the incident and resultant injuries probably has a few hundred thousand, if he is very lucky.

            So the DF is getting sued. Cause it has piles and piles and piles of cash.
            Last edited by JAG; 13 April 2005, 11:30.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by kermit
              This incident is the reason the 60 was withdrawn from service, and replaced with a new version. If the reason was faulty ammunition or the loader was at fault,, do you think this would have happened?
              A moritorium was placed on firing several types of mortar ammn (both 60mm and 81mm) due to an ongoing investigation into the safety or otherwise of same, which was only lifted last year.

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              • #8
                Fair point bravo. the incident was discribed to us one day and in that discription it seemed to be the loaders fault.

                I was also told that that the drill that they were practising is no longer carried out.

                J

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                • #9
                  A moritorium was placed on firing several types of mortar ammn (both 60mm and 81mm) due to an ongoing investigation into the safety or otherwise of same, which was only lifted last year.

                  The 60mm accident was in 1997. From that date until last year the 60 mortar could not be fired. Firing was resumed last year on the new Vektor 60mm. The Vektor was bought to replace the Hotchkiss-Brandt 60mm because that weapon was 1950s vintage and the accident was caused by the barrel splitting during firing. Now regulations say that mortars and 84s etc should be examined by an armourer before firing. They are and were on this occasion. But the regs also specify that that examination should include x-raying the barrel for cracks and faults. This did not happen for the simple reason that the DF did not provide the equipment to do so and still does not. Cue the next accident and claim.

                  The 81mm mortar was still being fired until Sept last year. This particular model incidentally was introduced in the early 80s as a result of another mortar explosion in which 4 or 5 members of the 4th bn lost their lives. Firing the 81 was forbidden last year because a tail fin sheared off a bomb in the barrel of an 81.

                  Both 60 and 81 ammo is currently being purchased from South Africa where quality control is obviously crap.

                  Jeebus, what exactly were you told that the No 2 (not the loader) did to cause the explosion?
                  sigpic
                  Say NO to violence against Women

                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  My favourite moment was when the
                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Groundhog
                    But the regs also specify that that examination should include x-raying the barrel for cracks and faults. This did not happen for the simple reason that the DF did not provide the equipment to do so and still does not. Cue the next accident and claim.
                    We couldnt train on the day before our shoot as all of mortors went for inspection by armourers. Some guns were actually declared unfit to be fired.

                    Originally posted by Groundhog
                    The 81mm mortar was still being fired until Sept last year. This particular model incidentally was introduced in the early 80s as a result of another mortar explosion in which 4 or 5 members of the 4th bn lost their lives. Firing the 81 was forbidden last year because a tail fin sheared off a bomb in the barrel of an 81.
                    Was this in the news?

                    Fired the ****ing thing in July...close...
                    Sex - Breakfast of Champions!

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                    • #11
                      It was an accident and nobody was directly to blame within in the group who were present at the time.
                      It would be wrong to attribute blame to any of those present.
                      Rumour is a vicous thing and does no good to any of those involved.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #12
                        There are always idiots,who though not witnesses themselves,still know more than those who were,and feel obliged to give their version of events to any who will listen.

                        The next person who tells me "what really happened in adare" for example,will recieve a size ten in the nose.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                        • #13
                          Both 60 and 81 ammo is currently being purchased from South Africa where quality control is obviously crap.

                          Ground Hog is right- the South African Ammo was the biggest waste of money the DF ever did- and one of the reasons cited for not spotting the crack in the barrel of the Kilworth 60 was the Army's insane desire to paint every surface- green paint doesnt hod a barrel together
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                          • #14
                            So whats the story with the 81 now?, can it be fired? are they thinking of replacing it?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Itchy
                              Some guns were actually declared unfit to be fired.




                              The exact same guns were unfit the year before that and i wouldnt be suprised if they were for years before that. I can tell you the numbers of the guns that wont be fired next year because the link in the chain wont be replaced because it has to go back to the curragh or wherever to be replaced.

                              They will be used for training and then everybody will be suprised when the armor says they cant be fired AGAIN for the exect same reason as last year and a solemn promise will be made that they will be sent away monday morning.

                              Look in the stores thursday morning itchy. They will still be tucked away there till the next course.
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