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  • Legal problems.

    Hi All,

    I have been thinking in the last few days about the various legal problems that could confront us in the Reserve, especially officers, and I was wondering how we would need to deal with them. Can people think of examples of legal problems and their solutions?

    An example of this would be:

    You are ic of a party sent to shannon and one man/woman refuses to go and states Articles 28-3-1 and 29-1/2/3 of the constitution as the reason and they consider themselves to be disobeying a unlawful order.

    How would you, as ic of the patrol, react?

    I did some research into this and came up with an answer.

    Another one, How does Section 112 (1) if the Defence Act 1954 relate to you.

    Any other items of interest?

    Constitution
    Defence Act

  • #2
    The mere fact that you are considering what to do when your troops refuse to obey their orders shows that you and your troops are not properly motivated or trained to do the job. If your troops were properly trained, you would have full confidence in them and you would know for certain that your NCO's would ensure compliance with all orders handed down. If you have to look over your shoulders to see if your troops are still there, then it's time to get another job.

    Comment


    • #3
      But in answer to your question.....disarm the person involved, lock them up and continue with the mission.
      Last edited by Ex-soldier; 1 March 2005, 17:59.

      Comment


      • #4
        ITS HYPOTHETICAL.

        What if questions are a good way to see how various other people would react to a certain situation.

        To see who's crazy and who's not crazy enough.

        Also never read those DFR's so could you give me an abridged version of them?
        Last edited by Bam Bam; 1 March 2005, 18:00.
        It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

        Comment


        • #5
          I thought the RDF was a voluntary organisation? If they refuse to go good riddance. One less liability if they have an attitude like that anyway. Disarm them, tell them return their uniform n feck off home to their mammys.
          Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body,
          but rather to skid in sideways, Champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other,
          body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming........................
          WOO HOO - What a Ride!" :tri:

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bam Bam
            ITS HYPOTHETICAL......
            Also never read those DFR's so could you give me an abridged version of them?
            Correct, It is hypothetical. I am just trying to think about the different situation one might find themselves in and possible solutions.

            The act and constitution are on links at the bottom of the first post. But what the hell.

            Article 28
            3. 1° War shall not be declared and the State shall not participate in any war save with the assent of Dáil Éireann
            Article 29
            1. Ireland affirms its devotion to the ideal of peace and friendly co-operation amongst nations founded on international justice and morality.
            2. Ireland affirms its adherence to the principle of the pacific settlement of international disputes by international arbitration or judicial determination.
            3. Ireland accepts the generally recognised principles of international law as its rule of conduct in its relations with other States.

            DA54
            112.—(1) No duties or tolls, otherwise payable by law in respect of the use of any pier, wharf, quay, landing place, highway, road, right of way, bridge or canal, shall be paid by or demanded from any unit or other element of the Defence Forces or an officer or man when on duty or any person under escort or in respect of the movement of any matériel of the Defence Forces.

            Originally posted by Ex-soldier
            disarm the person involved, lock them up and continue with the mission.
            But why??? They have sworn to obey all LAWFUL orders. Because of The above articles, can this be considered an Unlawful order. There is an answer, but I want to see peoples answers first.

            Originally posted by How Ya Doin?
            I thought the RDF was a voluntary organisation? If they refuse to go good riddance. One less liability if they have an attitude like that anyway. Disarm them, tell them return their uniform n feck off home to their mammys.
            Yes it is voluntary, but refusing orders while in uniform is still a chargable offence and technically could merit a jail sentence depending on the severity. Rethinking your decision to join???

            Comment


            • #7
              Can this hypothetical person give a reason why they are refusing to follow this order?
              Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body,
              but rather to skid in sideways, Champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other,
              body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming........................
              WOO HOO - What a Ride!" :tri:

              Comment


              • #8
                I got this idea from Indymedia (yes, I sometime read it.... good comedy)

                Irish troops out of Shannon!
                by Appeal Thursday, Dec 16 2004, 11:16pm

                An appeal to the Irish Defence Forces at Shannon Airport

                Ever since the major disarmament actions in Jan/Feb 2002 there has been an Irish military presence at Shannon Airport. Their mission? To ensure the unfettered use of the airport by the US military.
                Each day that Irish soldiers guard US military flights they are accessories to America's criminal wars.
                The cops, airport police and other FBO folks who work alongside the Irish troops aren't exactly in the same situation. Whether the laws of war are upheld or not internationally doesn't concern their profession.
                The Irish soldiers on the other hand rely on these international norms for their own safety. It's in their personal interests to stop the "disappearing" and torture of POWs, for example.

                http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php...ish%20soldiers

                Some people went on to draw similiarities to the Nuremburg trials and stated that soldiers cannot hide behind the defence of "only following orders".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Disarm them, remove them from the party, and charge them with disobeying a lawful order, in breach of the oath given freely on joining.

                  Now it's an SEP, and you've made clear your authority without purporting to determine the legality of your order, except insofar as carrying out the orders given to you are concerned.

                  But I think the lawful order stuff is more relevant to, say, being ordered to open fire indiscriminately on a protest of 100,000 civilians, or being ordered to carry out an extra-judicial killing. Someone claiming an unlawful order on the way to Shannon is pulling a stunt, and should be charged as an example to others. I would say this even if the order is unlawful: the courts decide on this one, not someone who's read too many stupid uninformed newspaper articles and thinks they can get an easy day in the warm.

                  If you feel the order is lawful, carry it out and ensure others do likewise. Bear in mind, however, that ignorance of the law is not an excuse in this or any other jurisdiction of which I am aware.
                  Take these men and women for your example.
                  Like them, remember that posterity can only
                  be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                  possession of those who have the
                  courage to defend it.
                  ***************
                  Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                  ***************
                  If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by How Ya Doin?
                    Can this hypothetical person give a reason why they are refusing to follow this order?
                    You are ic of a party sent to shannon and one man/woman refuses to go and states Articles 28-3-1 and 29-1/2/3 of the constitution as the reason and they consider themselves to be disobeying a unlawful order.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But why???

                      1)disarm the person involved
                      reason: They are no longer useful for you to the mission and their equipment could be.

                      lock them up
                      2) Do you want unarmed people wandering about a potentially dangerous situation. I would be safest to have to secured in a a well protected building

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jeebus
                        But why???

                        1)disarm the person involved
                        reason: They are no longer useful for you to the mission and their equipment could be.

                        lock them up
                        2) Do you want unarmed people wandering about a potentially dangerous situation. I would be safest to have to secured in a a well protected building
                        You're missing the point. You cannot arrest someone because they "no longer useful to you" or "wandering about a potentially dangerous situation". You are the one who would end up locked up for an illegal arrest. You have to state why your order is legal and why what they are doing is illegal.

                        They say your order contradicts the Irish Constitution. The Constitution is the ultimate law and therefore overrides your orders. They are therefore obeying the law (in their opinion) and you are the one committing an offence.

                        BTW, saying an order is an order is an order is not a legal defence. You are entitled to disobey unlawful orders (just make damn sure they are unlawful).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think I see where docman is going.

                          Everything in this situation is a red herring, bar one.

                          The soldier in question believes they have recieved an UNLAWFUL order.

                          PLT Cmdr can't lock him up, cause this soldier is challenging the order.
                          COY Cmdr issued the order from BN.
                          BN Cmdr got it from Brigade
                          and so on and so on.

                          Short term, dismount the soldier, replace him with another and return him to unit HQ to await further orders
                          Long term begin an investgation

                          AND GOD KNOWS WHERE THAT WOULD GO...............
                          It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Docman
                            You're missing the point. You cannot arrest someone because they "no longer useful to you" or "wandering about a potentially dangerous situation". You are the one who would end up locked up for an illegal arrest. You have to state why your order is legal and why what they are doing is illegal.
                            I can disarm any one under my command perfectly legally.

                            I think your missing my point. I am not arresting anyone. I am just confining them to a safe area. That is I am ordering them to go to a safe area. I am sure you have done that to recruits. Or I can order them to do a duty of washing the inside of a cell in the guard house. No one is arresting or being arrested.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Assuming we are talking about the RDF..

                              The oath taken by RDF officers:

                              I,.............., do solemnly swear (or declare) that I will be faithful to Ireland and loyal to the Constitution and that while I am an officer of the Permanent Defence Force I will obey all lawful orders issued to me by my superior officers and will not join or be a member of or subscribe to any political organisation or society or any secret society whatsoever.

                              The oath taken by RDF other ranks:

                              I, ............., do solemnly swear (or declare) that I will be faithful to Ireland and loyal to the Constitution and that while I am a man of the Reserve Defence Force I will obey all lawful orders issued to me by my superior officers and will not join or be a member of or subscribe to any secret society whatsoever.

                              Comment

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