Artillery...

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hello all
Artillery questions for your perusal,please. Once upon a time,I did the Mortar Course with the FCA and several things remain unresolved: It took two hours from setting up the guns to firing the first shot. When asked why, the nearest NCO stated that it was "taking 'em ages to work out the maths!". Eventually, we started firing,but why,oh,why did it take so long? What's so hard about working out bearings and elevations? Are there such things as "tables" for mortars? Are mortarmen taught anything more than just how to set up and load the weapon?
I have read in several military histories about guns being "gridded", so as to allow all tubes to be at the beck and call of one control centre.How is this done?
When we did the "84" course, in 1983, nothing was actually said about tanks or other AFVs.Nothing.When queried, the NCO replied that if it wasn't in the Manual, we weren't getting it. So, is there any armour familiarisation carried out?
What kind of life does a barrel of an artillery gun have? Do they have fixed lives, such as a lifetime total of x rounds, before being replaced?
thanks
GttC

[hptmurphy]

well there is an armour recognition course and a manual on same available for the 84mm if thats any good to you!

[Ex-soldier]

FCA armour recognition course is as follows:

1. Is it an armoured vehicle? Y/N
2. Does it have tracks? Y/N
3. Is it bigger than a scorpion? Y/N
4. Is it anywhere other than the Curragh, Glen of Imaal or Kilworth? Y/N

If you have answered Yes to all of the above questions.....Run and hide!!
If you answered No to any of the above questions, it may be the lads arriving with the tea so get more information before you run and hide

[Barry]

Eventually, we started firing,but why,oh,why did it take so long? What's so hard about working out bearings and elevations? Are there such things as "tables" for mortars? Are mortarmen taught anything more than just how to set up and load the weapon?

Artillery are taught to work as a team. This requires a lot of maths, to get dispersed guns to fire on one target. While it is possible for a gun to work independantly, it isn't anywhere near as accurate

I have read in several military histories about guns being "gridded", so as to allow all tubes to be at the beck and call of one control centre.How is this done?

In modern survey, a gun's exact position (down to the metre) is noted, and it's dialsight is aligned to grid north. It's bearing and range can then be calculated by simple trigonometry, and it can be laid onto a target very quickly.

What kind of life does a barrel of an artillery gun have? Do they have fixed lives, such as a lifetime total of x rounds, before being replaced?

In artillery, different charges are used to give different muzzle velocities. A barrel has a lifetime of a certain number of supercharges, with lower charges being a fraction of a supercharge

[surveysection]

troops probably started early in case of problems and then had to wait for the range to open. factors that can delay the opening include sheep/herds, doctor, ambulance etc.


these things take a set amount of time. various checks and balances are required. think about the big picture, the time required to pass orders and reports etc.

all gunners/soldeirs should be able to carry out the functions of one above and one below them. in real terms you should be able to do the job of two above you and everyone below you. this is generally the case with the better troops able to work in all the disciplines (guns/ survey/ foo)

guns have fixed lives. all rounds fired are recorded in their respective gun history hence being able to see that one of the 25 pr was fired in the battle of el alamein.

[Barry]

guns have fixed lives. all rounds fired are recorded in their respective gun history hence being able to see that one of the 25 pr was fired in the battle of el alamein.

Which is also why we're limited to charge 1 for training purposes

Do you mind PMing me info on the gun that was fired in El Alamein? I know there's a few that have sand coloured paint showing (they really should be painted, they look like crap), but I wasn't sure that there were any with a proven record of being fired in WW2

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
Survey, I appreciate that outside factors might delay a shoot but in this case,the range was clear,the weather was good and a lot of headscratching could be seen at the FO's position. Some people,including a Maths degree holder,offered their assistance but were rebuffed. As for knowing the job of the man above you,that was more preached than practised.
Barry, your mentioning Grid North makes sense to me.I was wondering if artillery surveyors used ordinary geographic maps or used an overlay. GPS must make life a lot easier.
With regard to the provenance of guns,my grandfather told me of inspecting guns recieved from the UK during the 2nd World War and seeing "Dunkirk" stamped on them.
regards
GttC

[Barry]

Hi all
Survey, I appreciate that outside factors might delay a shoot but in this case,the range was clear,the weather was good and a lot of headscratching could be seen at the FO's position. Some people,including a Maths degree holder,offered their assistance but were rebuffed.

As surveysection said, there are a lot of checks and balances to be done, especially during peacetime when there's a bigger need for safety than speed. Position data for every gun has to be first gathered by the survey lads, and then entered into the CP computers, checked and rechecked, and then the entire system is tested to ensure it works correctly. Someone with a maths degree is worth diddly squat to them: What they need is someone trained on a gun data computer.

Incidentally, you must have very good eyesight if you can see the FOO :p

Barry, your mentioning Grid North makes sense to me.I was wondering if artillery surveyors used ordinary geographic maps or used an overlay. GPS must make life a lot easier.

Survey is basically a game of finding where you are, as accurately as possible, and finding out where the guns are in relation to you, as accurately as possible. GPS and modern survey equipment make this very easy, and very accurate. The problems come in where all this data (quite a bit of data, depending on how many guns and how many positions are involved) has to be transcribed onto one big picture

[Laners]

This is all very complicated .
Could someone explain how they Naval Service goes about the same thing at sea while the ship and target are both moving around a lot . I hope it is not as complicated as in the Army .

[Boom]

Which is also why we're limited to charge 1 for training purposes

No you are limited to to charge 1 for safety reasons only.

[Groundhog]

A mortar shoot- setting up mortar line and engaging three targets should take less than 30 minutes. There's little maths involved, unless a resection and getting a bearing to the target is maths. After that it's down to mortar drills. Nowadays it's all done by computer.

[Goldie fish]

This is all very complicated .
Could someone explain how they Naval Service goes about the same thing at sea while the ship and target are both moving around a lot . I hope it is not as complicated as in the Army .

Vessels engaged in surface bombardment usually have complex fire control radars and rangefinders incorporated into the main armament. Otherwise they engage targets in the same way as any wheeled or tracked armoured fighting vehicle would.

[Barry]

No you are limited to to charge 1 for safety reasons only.

Yes, because the guns are so old and have fired so many rounds that firing anything above charge 1 leaves a chance that the gun crew may be picking rather large pieces of breech from their face for a few years.

Artillery is supposed to be a get set up quickly, shoot and get the hell out of there game. If you don't, once you fire the first shot, the enemy is tracking back your position, and after 3 shots, you will find you are dead - or soon will be. What's that whistling sound? Arrrgh!

We're talking about RDF Regiments firing. Where the person on the CP may not have a lot of training in their job, and a lot of consideration is given over to safety. In wartime, with all personnel completely trained in their jobs, and with an attitude of "hurry up so we can kill people we don't like, or people we like may die", it could all be done a lot quicker. But then again, the RDF is entirely based upon what we could do, if properly equipped/manned/trained/led

[Boom]

Yes, because the guns are so old and have fired so many rounds that firing anything above charge 1 leaves a chance that the gun crew may be picking rather large pieces of breech from their face for a few years.

Wrong.... its incase a round bounces off the side of a mountain. No other reason. With the amount of rounds a 25pdr fires per year there is still years of service left in the guns. The biggest problem with them is the lack of spare parts because they are so old.

[Boom]

We're talking about RDF Regiments firing. Where the person on the CP may not have a lot of training in their job, and a lot of consideration is given over to safety. In wartime, with all personnel completely trained in their jobs, and with an attitude of "hurry up so we can kill people we don't like, or people we like may die", it could all be done a lot quicker. But then again, the RDF is entirely based upon what we could do, if properly equipped/manned/trained/led



More Bull Shit........