Attitudes to the military.

[Itchy]

Working out in the south of France for the summer (I know, lifes a bitch but somones got to got to drink the beer!!!)

Anyway, got on the metro after work and two Air Force (Armee de l'Air) soldiers got on beside me(A guy and a girl) in full CEFO with P60's. I didnt see if they were loaded but their hands did not leave the pistol grip as people were shuffling by etc. But you would kinda know that they were by their body language.

I was just thinking if that happened on the LUAS or Dublin Bus how many wah's would be pullling at the weapon and "Is da a real gun mista?"

It is such a totally different attitude to the forces over here.

Wasnt their a British officer repremaned a few years back for going through London in full battle kit?

[mugs]

I was just thinking if that happened on the LUAS or Dublin Bus how many wah's would be pullling at the weapon and "Is da a real gun mista?"

What about the DART?

Anyway you'd probably get one arse, trying to be smart. ''yo mister, is dat gun real or what?''

Wasnt their a British officer repremaned a few years back for going through London in full battle kit?

When I was in London 2 weeks ago I seen a group of squaddie types leaving the wellington Barracks (1st Irish Guards) in civvies, so I don't think it's allowed. Maybe they were on official air force business.

[hptmurphy]

our attitude is far more enlightning toward seeing soldiers in uniform armed onn the streets..they just don't do that in the UK. Yeah you'll see the odd head in uniform...but never armed..they don't travel openly armed like ours...no escorts mounted etc....

[hedgehog]

I think the attitude to Soldiers by civvies here is best expressed in the following

God and the Soldier all men adore
In times of trouble and times of war
When war is over and trouble is righted
God is neglected and the Soldier is slighted

When WE won the nobel peace prize for UNIFIL, every swinging dick politican was saying our boys this our boys that
When there is a good mingy trip to an overseas mission, every swinging dick journalist is our boys this our boys that pride of the country

When the government negligently failed to provide sufficent hearing protection for us and some of our members went to Court and were adjudged tohave indeed suffered irrepable hearing loss, the governments PR consultants went into full swing against us, no longer were we our boys this.

Soldiers in Israel are considered special because every citizen has to defend the Coutry and every citizen has to serve, you see in Israeli papers ads like "give lifts to Soldiers" etc

In the states, there are signs every where support our troops, there are organisations dedicated to sending comfort parcels to OUR troops etc

When the British Army went to Iraq, every paper and large organisation, fell over them selves to send out stuff to OUR boys.

So Itchy, in answer to what i think is one fo the most pertinent questions posted here

The Irish government and people couldnt give to sh*ts for our Army

lcuky enough there is enough of us around that actually do care about our Army.

[yooklid]

lcuky enough there is enough of us around that actually do care about our Army.

Unfortunatly we don't really seem to be in a position to do anything about it.

[HavocIRL]

I think the papers are the worst culprits. I.E. Ex soldier rapes girl, Ex soldier murders teen. Why do they always go out of their way to point out that it was an ex soldier?

You'd never hear of "ex postman kills 3"

[hedgehog]

I think the papers are the worst culprits. I.E. Ex soldier rapes girl, Ex soldier murders teen. Why do they always go out of their way to point out that it was an ex soldier?

You'd never hear of "ex postman kills 3"

Henry Mconald writing in the Guardian about Macaleavy and the attitude twoards his (lets hope never) release by both ex soldiers and tabloid journalist said

The former group's opposition is perfectly understandable given the respect and dignity past and present members of the Defence Forces award to fallen comrades killed in the field; the latter (tabloids) simply want to create demons to sell more papers.

[yellowjacket]

Nothing new here folks:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[Ex-soldier]

Hey Havol IRL.....I didn't do any of that stuff!!!

[Itchy]

I think the attitude to Soldiers by civvies here is best expressed in the following

God and the Soldier all men adore
In times of trouble and times of war
When war is over and trouble is righted
God is neglected and the Soldier is slighted

When WE won the nobel peace prize for UNIFIL, every swinging dick politican was saying our boys this our boys that
When there is a good mingy trip to an overseas mission, every swinging dick journalist is our boys this our boys that pride of the country

When the government negligently failed to provide sufficent hearing protection for us and some of our members went to Court and were adjudged tohave indeed suffered irrepable hearing loss, the governments PR consultants went into full swing against us, no longer were we our boys this.

Soldiers in Israel are considered special because every citizen has to defend the Coutry and every citizen has to serve, you see in Israeli papers ads like "give lifts to Soldiers" etc

In the states, there are signs every where support our troops, there are organisations dedicated to sending comfort parcels to OUR troops etc

When the British Army went to Iraq, every paper and large organisation, fell over them selves to send out stuff to OUR boys.

So Itchy, in answer to what i think is one fo the most pertinent questions posted here

The Irish government and people couldnt give to sh*ts for our Army

lcuky enough there is enough of us around that actually do care about our Army.

Hear hear.

What do you think will change this attitude?

A requirement to serve?

I have met so many europeans of different nationalitys over here many who have served in their home countrys. It is a fact of life for them and while some say they didnt like it, others feel than the experiance has served them well.

When I tell people I am a member of the reserves their is a mutual interest in each others experiance and knowledge. Its the Irish people that mouth off and take the piss and talk about things they know nothing about...

I think it down to the politicans aswell. When the DF are treated like a professional organisation we will be seen as such.

[gunmoney]

Working out in the south of France for the summer (I know, lifes a bitch but somones got to got to drink the beer!!!)

Anyway, got on the metro after work and two Air Force (Armee de l'Air) soldiers got on beside me(A guy and a girl) in full CEFO with P60's. I didnt see if they were loaded but their hands did not leave the pistol grip as people were shuffling by etc. But you would kinda know that they were by their body language.

I was just thinking if that happened on the LUAS or Dublin Bus how many wah's would be pullling at the weapon and "Is da a real gun mista?"

It is such a totally different attitude to the forces over here.

Wasnt their a British officer repremaned a few years back for going through London in full battle kit?

How many cash escorts wold you see around and no one bats a eye lid at them doing there job. In paris last november and there was a small army (15 to 20) around the Eiffel Tower, again everyone went about the business.
Fact is, it's common in other countries, but not in ours, anyone who has done a public display will tell you the army stand attract more vistors than almost anything else apart from the food stand .

And yes all the Wahs and Wahwomess would be asking "Is da a real gun mista?" until it becomes common pratice.

[California Tanker]

Wasnt their a British officer repremaned a few years back for going through London in full battle kit

Probably.

There is actually some obscure British law that states that all military must gain permission from the Mayor or the Queen or something like that before being armed in the city of London. There is one old artillery unit, if I recall, which is exempt from this.

NTM

[Itchy]

The Defence Forces are undermanned, ill-equipped in many respects and unappreciated by many. The Government view is that there is no threat that needs to be guarded against except what they would see as the diminishing threat from subversives. If there was no IRA there would be no Defence Forces. Irish politicians actually see no problem in accepting the shield provided by our neighbours while contributing little to our own defence. However the Defence Forces have done very well in projecting a positive image of Ireland through their involvement in UN operations. At what price though? We now have a Defence Forces too timid generally to take decisive action, or even to confront the issues of "political correctness" within the forces: "bullying", women in inappropriate roles in combat units, PDFORRA, "health & safety" etc. Until these issues are confronted and dealt with you will never have a proper, aggressive, proud military no matter how well you equip it.

The attitude of previous and the present government has really confounded the problem for the DF. They are seen as something that looks good at a state cermony and/or an exsecutive travel agent.

The country is not even a century old...how did the 'glory of the revoloution' and the admiration of the army in the early 1900's decend to animosity and resentment towards the DF?

Or has it been politically smart not to invest in the DF?

P.S. Sorry for the spellin still drunk after last night.

[happenin]

The country is not even a century old...how did the 'glory of the revoloution' and the admiration of the army in the early 1900's decend to animosity and resentment towards the DF?

Easy. We need an evil shower of bastards to fight to instill a bit of pride back in the DF. Where are the black n tans when ya want em eh?
Back then we were dependant on the df to win our freedom for us. Now we have no one to fight. its only natural, The DF aren't the shining beacon of admirable poeple doing great and adventurous deeds they used to be. But some day..................................

[Rooster]

Wasnt their a British officer repremaned a few years back for going through London in full battle kit

Probably.

There is actually some obscure British law that states that all military must gain permission from the Mayor or the Queen or something like that before being armed in the city of London. There is one old artillery unit, if I recall, which is exempt from this.

NTM

That might have happened a few years ago but it is now allowed as it is aimed to give the military a higher "public profile" it is even mentioned at the bottom of pay slips, although it obviously does'nt extend to the six counties.