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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Talk of green field sites is encouraging, however a cursory look at recent history when it comes to the state purchasing greenfield sites for state buildings is not encouraging. The new Garda HQ in Kilmainham, The new prison site that was never built on. The Garda tactical training centre outside Templemore?
    I'd suggest instead make better use of what we have. The DF owns huge areas of land around the country, most of which is used for short periods throughout the year for training. Accommodation on most of these rarely goes beyond single storey huts. BUILD UP! Even in Coolmoney, there is a very poor use of space, and too many buildings there are effectively idle, could be knocked, a 3 storey building put there instead, and to be honest, nobody in civvy street would be any wiser. Same could be said for Finner, Kilworth, Bere Island, etc.
    We are renting the majority of army land to sheep farmers!

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  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    100 years ago we inherited the military infrastructure we have today, buildings and facilities have changed but the locations have remained the same. Baldonnel and Gormanstown were originally RFC station, located for the needs of WW1. In those days Baldonnel was perfect for interception of any German raiders although none came. Even in WW2 the locations was relevant, and if we look across the water London too had bases close by. Today apart from Northolt which is a special case all the bases have closed. The same goes for all the army locations, they were located to control the civil population in event of an uprising. There locations were not chosen for the defence of the country in the 21st century.

    Location and the associated investment for military infrastructure needs to be thought in the very long term, 100year+. While Dublin airport may offer some possibility for the short term in the real long term it too will become unsuitable. It too is hemmed in on the north, east and south sides and as traffic grows the capacity will be limited. And if by some miracle we ever did get some fast jets they would find it difficult to operate out of an airport so close to large urban populations.

    So maybe once we know what the direction our defence forces will follow after the Commission's report we should look at what infrastructure is needed with a green field approach. If some of the existing locations are suitable then keep them but if not then divest and invest in new locations that will support the DF for the next 100 years.
    Reasoning for barracks locations was also the speed of MT, helicopters didn’t exist and neither did dual carriageways. With regard to RAF/RFC bases it was probably also to do with aircraft range (there was also at least 1 in Munster).

    We have actually closed the only 2 military barracks the State built.

    Don’t think that fast jets based out of Dublin would be too much of an issue but IMHO space is.

    On the other hand, basing at a regional airport (to support viability?) could even require runway extensions and the like, as well as a lot of built infrastructure.

    Green field site or just use of existing locations, a lot of modern fit for purpose, energy efficient built infrastructure is required by the DF

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  • EUFighter
    replied
    100 years ago we inherited the military infrastructure we have today, buildings and facilities have changed but the locations have remained the same. Baldonnel and Gormanstown were originally RFC station, located for the needs of WW1. In those days Baldonnel was perfect for interception of any German raiders although none came. Even in WW2 the locations was relevant, and if we look across the water London too had bases close by. Today apart from Northolt which is a special case all the bases have closed. The same goes for all the army locations, they were located to control the civil population in event of an uprising. There locations were not chosen for the defence of the country in the 21st century.

    Location and the associated investment for military infrastructure needs to be thought in the very long term, 100year+. While Dublin airport may offer some possibility for the short term in the real long term it too will become unsuitable. It too is hemmed in on the north, east and south sides and as traffic grows the capacity will be limited. And if by some miracle we ever did get some fast jets they would find it difficult to operate out of an airport so close to large urban populations.

    So maybe once we know what the direction our defence forces will follow after the Commission's report we should look at what infrastructure is needed with a green field approach. If some of the existing locations are suitable then keep them but if not then divest and invest in new locations that will support the DF for the next 100 years.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    DeV, that ramp area directly in front of the current fire station is mostly used as remote parking or turnaround parking for the big freighters or any large aircraft that has a long visit planned. Don't forget, the 2 Casas were accomodated in Dublin recently enough when the Don had ATC issues. Space is not really as big an issue as it appears. You might have to move an aircraft around a bit but generally there is plenty of room.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    Doing active peace time roles such as FP for the Navy and elements of ATCP for troops adds to competence and gives on the ground Comms and deployment experience. Any kind of operational experience is scarce in peacetime so any opportunity to manoeuvre is welcome. Dropping ATCP/SAR type tasks because of inconvenience would not be a good policy
    Problem is we have become caught up in ATCP/ATCA duties as a priority, and have equipped accordingly. What we should have done is equipped to fulfil primary roles first (defend the state from external or internal aggression) and with surplus capability carry out the ATCP/ATCA duties.

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  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    Doing active peace time roles such as FP for the Navy and elements of ATCP for troops adds to competence and gives on the ground Comms and deployment experience. Any kind of operational experience is scarce in peacetime so any opportunity to manoeuvre is welcome. Dropping ATCP/SAR type tasks because of inconvenience would not be a good policy
    Absolutely I agree and it is better VFM

    But other countries have other agencies and better equipped militaries

    Leave a comment:


  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post

    Argument can be made that contracting out anything that isn’t military (as in Defence of the State (and overseas)) allows the DF to concentrate on that.

    not that I’m advocating it
    Doing active peace time roles such as FP for the Navy and elements of ATCP for troops adds to competence and gives on the ground Comms and deployment experience. Any kind of operational experience is scarce in peacetime so any opportunity to manoeuvre is welcome. Dropping ATCP/SAR type tasks because of inconvenience would not be a good policy

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    in effect, the future (and publicised plan) for Dublin Airport is for hard stands, offices and hangarage on the Western footprint of the airport between the two main runways. there are persistent rumours that some of the old hangarage will be knocked and tenants moved Westward. A lot of the rerouting of old roads and laying of new roads has been done. As for usage, a lot of usage is effectively temporary, ie, park for a day or two and go off again. The kind of very long term parking that you see in Shannon is not really a thing in Dublin Airport.
    where there is a stand currently, south of the fire station?

    if AC was there they would want them more of less full time


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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    in effect, the future (and publicised plan) for Dublin Airport is for hard stands, offices and hangarage on the Western footprint of the airport between the two main runways. there are persistent rumours that some of the old hangarage will be knocked and tenants moved Westward. A lot of the rerouting of old roads and laying of new roads has been done. As for usage, a lot of usage is effectively temporary, ie, park for a day or two and go off again. The kind of very long term parking that you see in Shannon is not really a thing in Dublin Airport.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post

    The way I see it, you can fundamentally base helicopters anywhere. Fixed wing aircraft,by needing a decent, secure runway, can also be based on any of the nine commercial airports in the State. None of the current types are so special that they need special treatment with the exception of the ejection seats in the PC-9s and the need to fit weapons, now and then. VIPs are routinely catered for in Dublin Airport, as it gives them a short road run to the centres of power,so that's not an issue. You can ring the place with soldiers inside an hour, if you have to. Same with any airport. It already has two police forces on hand. You could keep Baldonnel as an overhaul base and do nothing except the deepest stuff (most of which is done abroad anyway)there. You can farm out the helis anywhere and the Curragh should have immediate access to helis anyway, so base a couple there from the off. It's fundamentally what they are for. Helis and the rest don't have to come back to Baldonnel for the smaller inspections. Personally, I think the AC should have a serious think about it's future at Baldonnel as outside entities will be eyeing it's landbank. They might find themselves shoved out, if they don't get proactive and justify their foothold, in this climate of housing shortages and industrial buying power.
    I’d assume (maybe incorrectly) that much existing built infrastructure in Dublin Airport is in use and therefore would not be available.

    Assuming it is and the Dublin Aerospace, Aer Lingus (is that the building to East of DA?) aren’t moving, the only real areas available to build on currently are to the North (between the new runway and Naul Road) or South (between the Southern runway and Old Airport Road/R108).

    other that that it would be buying private land and would need to include rerouting roads.

    nothing saying it’s an insurmountable issue of course

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  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.
    Argument can be made that contracting out anything that isn’t military (as in Defence of the State (and overseas)) allows the DF to concentrate on that.

    not that I’m advocating it

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Coasties management is probably about 90% ex naval officers at this stage anyway.

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  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.
    You've got it in one. The DF land and site holdings is being seen as the gift that keeps giving. I said it here before; the DF is being reduced to the status of a gendarmarie and is having it's assets farmed out and nothing given back. No Reserve worth talking about. Im only surprised the DF hasnt been rolled into Civ Def/Coasties before now.

    Leave a comment:


  • ancientmariner
    replied
    We need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoneToTheCanner
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post

    Surely dedicated AC space would be required

    are we not talking about moving the whole AC to Dublin Airport
    The way I see it, you can fundamentally base helicopters anywhere. Fixed wing aircraft,by needing a decent, secure runway, can also be based on any of the nine commercial airports in the State. None of the current types are so special that they need special treatment with the exception of the ejection seats in the PC-9s and the need to fit weapons, now and then. VIPs are routinely catered for in Dublin Airport, as it gives them a short road run to the centres of power,so that's not an issue. You can ring the place with soldiers inside an hour, if you have to. Same with any airport. It already has two police forces on hand. You could keep Baldonnel as an overhaul base and do nothing except the deepest stuff (most of which is done abroad anyway)there. You can farm out the helis anywhere and the Curragh should have immediate access to helis anyway, so base a couple there from the off. It's fundamentally what they are for. Helis and the rest don't have to come back to Baldonnel for the smaller inspections. Personally, I think the AC should have a serious think about it's future at Baldonnel as outside entities will be eyeing it's landbank. They might find themselves shoved out, if they don't get proactive and justify their foothold, in this climate of housing shortages and industrial buying power.

    Leave a comment:

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