Military Barracks Maintenance/Modernisation

[ancientmariner]

running rumour . Not included in LDA land grab, only Bricins was in that

RACO conference indicate that consultants have been appointed to advise on the FUTURE of Cathal Brugha barracks. Sounds a terminal prognosis may be on it's way. We need an audit on the disposal of Defence lands and who did what, who got what, and what did defence get, and what was done to offset losses. The DOD had ownership ,from Brit handover, of most of the west and southern side of Cork harbour. The NMCI , Crematorium, and Park is the last of it. Literally one could say that assets are plundered and carcasses picked over as Governments cycle through.

[na grohmiti]

At least the NS are getting to use the facilities, and have a say in the Running of NMCI, something that would have been impossible had the land remained in DoD ownership. No point sitting on a parcel of land, watching it be used for fly-tipping, temporary halting sites and someplace where undergrowth got a chance to flourish. The only thing the DoD managed to do with the land from when it was reclaimed was erect a few signs saying "DoD property". The shambles that was the legal effort to evict the squatters from this property showed their ambivalence to ownership. Thankfully weather and tides were of far more use in assisting witht he eventual eviction. Never happened since.
NS are getting use of the Crematorium too, but that's a whole other story.
The Park was never on DF land to begin with. It was built on land reclaimed from the sea, by dumping of assorted waste. The public can have it. You couldn't build anything on it for 50 years at best, and even then nothing that entails ground penetration for construction.

[DeV]

RACO conference indicate that consultants have been appointed to advise on the FUTURE of Cathal Brugha barracks. Sounds a terminal prognosis may be on it's way. We need an audit on the disposal of Defence lands and who did what, who got what, and what did defence get, and what was done to offset losses. The DOD had ownership ,from Brit handover, of most of the west and southern side of Cork harbour. The NMCI , Crematorium, and Park is the last of it. Literally one could say that assets are plundered and carcasses picked over as Governments cycle through.

old but interesting
https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/find-rep...e-property.pdf

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/find-report/publications/2002/2001-annual-report-chapter-10-department-of-defence.pdf




i assume it’s something like a cost benefit being done. Cost of maintenance, energy use, strategic location etc -v- cost of relocation etc (I’d say that there aren’t many unused buildings in CBB (but it’s been a while since I was there)), unless CoDF recommends reducing the DF further a major building programme at existing DF sites/a greenfield site would be required which will not be cheap.

Strange how DoD can do that but park everything else

in fairness though we are in a massive housing & environmental crisis and everything should be looked at…… so long as the troops, equipment and operational capability is at the very minimum retained

[ancientmariner]

old but interesting
https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/find-rep...e-property.pdf

https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/find-report/publications/2002/2001-annual-report-chapter-10-department-of-defence.pdf




i assume it’s something like a cost benefit being done. Cost of maintenance, energy use, strategic location etc -v- cost of relocation etc (I’d say that there aren’t many unused buildings in CBB (but it’s been a while since I was there)), unless CoDF recommends reducing the DF further a major building programme at existing DF sites/a greenfield site would be required which will not be cheap.

Strange how DoD can do that but park everything else

in fairness though we are in a massive housing & environmental crisis and everything should be looked at…… so long as the troops, equipment and operational capability is at the very minimum retained

The value of the old report is questionable, in making a statement that the PDF Reserve was at a strength of 14,000. With the many VFM reviews/ reports made on Defence in 1990's and to date, our Forces have been shrunk from a purported 11,000 at the 1998 review to the current+/- 8,500. With the continuing loss of properties, and deterioration of the 1922 acquired buildings , and loss of potential training/expansion needs, the PDF are being painted into a corner. What has happened as regards Married quarters is direct policy of allowing them to remain at 1922 standards and grossly substandard and unfit for habitation. The danger now is that unthinking pre-emptive action may be taken that will finish any chance of recovery. Build and modernise is the only answer.

[DeV]

The value of the old report is questionable, in making a statement that the PDF Reserve was at a strength of 14,000. With the many VFM reviews/ reports made on Defence in 1990's and to date, our Forces have been shrunk from a purported 11,000 at the 1998 review to the current+/- 8,500. With the continuing loss of properties, and deterioration of the 1922 acquired buildings , and loss of potential training/expansion needs, the PDF are being painted into a corner. What has happened as regards Married quarters is direct policy of allowing them to remain at 1922 standards and grossly substandard and unfit for habitation. The danger now is that unthinking pre-emptive action may be taken that will finish any chance of recovery. Build and modernise is the only answer.

never mind the MQs (mainly not used any more), some of the office and SLI living Accomodiation is unfit (to varying degrees) in some locations

if it continues to be occupied it is going to cost more and more to maintain and refurbish. It is also not going to be energy efficient (high cost and large contributions to climate change).

[Fantasia]

The true value of keeping CBB is that it concentrates so many of the DF's "HR issues" in one place and prevents contagion across the rest of the organisation

[ancientmariner]

The true value of keeping CBB is that it concentrates so many of the DF's "HR issues" in one place and prevents contagion across the rest of the organisation

Barracks of any kind just need to be fit, and a decent place to live and work and have all necessary resources. If there are other generated problems within a barracks then the answer there lies within the units and a regime of Inspections and channels of feedback. Any PDF needs all it's social supports not least, MQ facilities, Medical support for all, Sports and recreation, modern living and work spaces. With HR you are back to ethics and how we work and think.

[GoneToTheCanner]

I think the unwritten policy is to allow the complete encroachment by civilian buildings and infrastructure to envelop a barracks/aerodrome/naval base and then claim that events have forced their hand and the site must be sold. Baldonnel is entirely surrounded by factories and housing, to the extent that it resembles a typical American urban airport and hundreds of those have been closed for development. I suspect that CBB will go the same way. I wonder why Kildare is not yet turned into something useful.

[ODIN]

So, by the sounds of it, Baldonnel and CBB are both going to be consumed and handed over the civilians in the coming years. Do we need to start to look at a few green field sites for the DF as a whole? Co-location of the Aer Corps and Army at a single base outside of Dublin as an example?

[DeV]

Often spoken of was Kilbride to replace CBB

god help them

[ODIN]

Personally, I think we should be looking at six locations:

1. Haulbowline, ideally the entire island would be handed to the DF, the recreational park would be CPO'd
2. Kilworth, retained and expanded to form a new Brigade HQ and house all units for Collins and Sarsfield barracks
3. The Curragh, modernised barracks to house troops and those on training
4. Finner Camp, modernise as needed, upgrade and expand the runway
5. New greenfield site on the west coast which can be accessed by the NS
6. New greenfield site in Co. Dublin which can be shared by the AC and Army and is on the M50 corridor and outside of residential and commercial areas

Maintenance of small regional buildings for community outreach, reserve training etc. akin to what the BA do (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragan...eet_drill_hall)

[na grohmiti]

Personally, I think we should be looking at six locations:

1. Haulbowline, ideally the entire island would be handed to the DF, the recreational park would be CPO'd
2. Kilworth, retained and expanded to form a new Brigade HQ and house all units for Collins and Sarsfield barracks
3. The Curragh, modernised barracks to house troops and those on training
4. Finner Camp, modernise as needed, upgrade and expand the runway
5. New greenfield site on the west coast which can be accessed by the NS
6. New greenfield site in Co. Dublin which can be shared by the AC and Army and is on the M50 corridor and outside of residential and commercial areas

Maintenance of small regional buildings for community outreach, reserve training etc. akin to what the BA do (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragan...eet_drill_hall)

Agreed with some minor points:

1. Leave the park as it is. You don't want to touch that with anything bigger than a garden fork for another 20/30 years. It can be like the Curragh though, closing of barriers on appointed dates to prevent right of way being established. Otherwise, the idle space is plenty large enough to take everything in Collins Bks as is. Problem is with expanded Cork Prison next door, I don't see many willing to take the current Collins footprint for commercial or educational use. Access won't improve either.
2. Kilworth is actually grossly under-utilised. There used to be as many buildings to the East of the public road as there is currently to the west, and the main road would make an ideal airstrip. Public traffic on it lately is down to nil. The prison was never built so the state owned land to the south should be given back. Last time I looked there was no 2 storey buildings inside the perimeter. This is a poor use of land which already sits on a sunken site.
3. The notion that crumbling buildings that once housed those who fought in the Crimean war is something of value is an opinion not held by historians or archaeologists, just the DoD and the OPW. Urgent meeting with Mr Wrecking ball required throughout. Build modern fit for purpose blocks on the footprint of the older ones. Use the same brick if you want.
4. My only concern with Finner is will coastal erosion take it back? Otherwise it makes no sense that the only barracks with its own airstrip has closed said airstrip.
5. Only the Shannon Estuary, Galway or Rathmullan are options. The Green initiative should see an end to Moneypoint in Clare, which already has a deepwater berth, but like Haulbowline will be a dirty site requiring costly cleanup.
6. Is such a thing possible? Dublin airport restricts all independent movement of aircraft as it is. Bal still has usefulness as a rotary wing only base, with the rest of your Dublin based Army units on site too. The further south you go the less affordable land banks still available.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Don't look at Baldonnel without considering Weston. You could easily move the rotary function to Weston, which is being revamped. Weston would bite your hand off for the work. Weston is now owned by a consortium led by one of the Collison brothers. They'd be more than happy to facilitate the Air Corps. Baldonnel is also a "dirty" site and would need remediation to clear out decades of waste buried or drained into certain parts of the Camp. I'd bet if Amazon or Google were offered it, they'd take it in a heart beat. You could move the Learjet to Weston or Dublin Airport, and operate it safely and securely, just like every other business jet in the world. Casas and PC-12s and PC-9s to Shannon or Dublin Airport. Lots of joint Mil/Civil airports worldwide,that operate just fine. You also have to understand that consideration for the welfare of the soldiery is at the bottom of the Govt's list. If a soldier has to be relocated, he/she would get a few token euro as compensation and simply ordered to move. Don't like it, go someplace else. If the DoD wants to get the DF out of Dublin City, it's to hell or to Gormo or all points West or to the Curragh, with a few token locations on the Border.

[ancientmariner]

Somewhere in archives or in hand-ins from C&S, and Senior Staff Courses there are plans for past and future Defence needs. The population now is double that of 1940's at 5m+ and the PDF footprint has more than halved. If ever an emergency arises we will not be able to avail of ready to go facilities.to assemble and manoeuvre Brigade sized units and their supports. Military real estate is attractive as it is generally big with some training and recreational grounds that looks attractive to developers and their lobbyists. Closures and disposals MUST be offset by up to date replacements and not just a shift to Victorian era buildings and sort it out yourself with a lick of paint. PDF needs including barracks, airfields with runways, harbours and berths, training grounds, ranges of all types MUST be specified by the Uniformed Services. Relying on the Civil side leads to disposal and upheaval without adding to defence capability.

[ODIN]

Agreed with some minor points:

1. Leave the park as it is. You don't want to touch that with anything bigger than a garden fork for another 20/30 years. It can be like the Curragh though, closing of barriers on appointed dates to prevent right of way being established. Otherwise, the idle space is plenty large enough to take everything in Collins Bks as is. Problem is with expanded Cork Prison next door, I don't see many willing to take the current Collins footprint for commercial or educational use. Access won't improve either.
2. Kilworth is actually grossly under-utilised. There used to be as many buildings to the East of the public road as there is currently to the west, and the main road would make an ideal airstrip. Public traffic on it lately is down to nil. The prison was never built so the state owned land to the south should be given back. Last time I looked there was no 2 storey buildings inside the perimeter. This is a poor use of land which already sits on a sunken site.
3. The notion that crumbling buildings that once housed those who fought in the Crimean war is something of value is an opinion not held by historians or archaeologists, just the DoD and the OPW. Urgent meeting with Mr Wrecking ball required throughout. Build modern fit for purpose blocks on the footprint of the older ones. Use the same brick if you want.
4. My only concern with Finner is will coastal erosion take it back? Otherwise it makes no sense that the only barracks with its own airstrip has closed said airstrip.
5. Only the Shannon Estuary, Galway or Rathmullan are options. The Green initiative should see an end to Moneypoint in Clare, which already has a deepwater berth, but like Haulbowline will be a dirty site requiring costly cleanup.
6. Is such a thing possible? Dublin airport restricts all independent movement of aircraft as it is. Bal still has usefulness as a rotary wing only base, with the rest of your Dublin based Army units on site too. The further south you go the less affordable land banks still available.

On the park, I wouldn't envisage using it for building, but as you mentioned, right of way to the military needs to be established.

On the Curragh, your post on what was done in Templemore is the way to go. Level it and rebuild new, fit for purpose 21st century buildings.