Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
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Military Barracks Maintenance/Modernisation
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An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
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Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
Whatever you decide for new locations, particularly for AC, can't have dispersed formations. It only adds to logs, maintenance, command, comms, issues and steps back to legacy problems of having formations spread over many locations. AC should all be in one site, able to deploy detachments for specific tasks as required and also utilise existing infrastructure, eg. ATC, hangerage. all with the provision of being secured for military ops and prioritised as required over commercial interests if co-located.
"Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
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Is Dublin Airport too busy? The earliy morning elephant walk to the runway is a sight to behold. Not seen it an any other International airport. Trying to do routine military movements around such a busy field would have issues. Particularly when you have no other operational base.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
Whatever you decide for new locations, particularly for AC, can't have dispersed formations. It only adds to logs, maintenance, command, comms, issues and steps back to legacy problems of having formations spread over many locations. AC should all be in one site, able to deploy detachments for specific tasks as required and also utilise existing infrastructure, eg. ATC, hangerage. all with the provision of being secured for military ops and prioritised as required over commercial interests if co-located.
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
That is true, to a very great extent as it avoids needless duplication but Baldonnel is effectively being boxed in (so too is Weston, but it has less scope for big aircraft and more room to get clear of, in an emergency) by the day and God help them if there is an crash or serious accident anywhere nearby. Baldonnel doesn't have the sanitised approaches that Dublin has. Aircraft like the Learjet and PC-12s could operate out of Dublin effortlessly,as their civilian colleagues do every day of the week. Remember, Dublin will have three runways in operation shortly. You don't need cumbersome military bureaucracies to operate aircraft like Learjets and PC-12s. They have been operated for decades by lean organisations and are designed for that kind of operation. As for armed aircraft like the PC-9, obviously that requires security and so on but that's well within the grasp of the AC and our State and local airports are easy to guard, if you need to. I think the pressure is on for Baldonnel to be closed especially if the Googles or Amazons turn up with big chequebooks. You've seen how quickly they are building that centre beside Baldonnel. they could easily duplicate it inside the fence in a matter of months. I suspect the Govt would token moan a bit but would take the cash when offered and the Donners would have to shift.
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Lots of ramp space for smaller aircraft and more coming, as well as hangarage and space for offices and so on. DAA is planning to massively increase the covered footprint airside and one Learjet and four PC-12s could easily be accommodated. On any day or night, not all the ramp space and hangarage is fully taken up. An airport that is full and busy at 9 am is half empty at 11 am. Airports ebb and flow,by their nature, so a few business jet sized aircraft can easily be fitted in. Hangarage is also a fluid item; need a corner under an A330's wing for two days? no problem. Need to store tools,kit and spare tyres? No problem. it happens all day, every day at all of our airports and is quite seamless. The DF in general and the AC in particular have a lot of corporate experience is using Dublin and are well versed in how to operate securely. If you want weapons security, it's not that hard to cordon off an area, provide local armed manpower and keep an aircraft thoroughly secure. This stuff is entirely doable. The notion that the AC is so utterly different than all the world's air arms, that it can't coexist with civilian aviation, is nonsense.
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostLots of ramp space for smaller aircraft and more coming, as well as hangarage and space for offices and so on. DAA is planning to massively increase the covered footprint airside and one Learjet and four PC-12s could easily be accommodated. On any day or night, not all the ramp space and hangarage is fully taken up. An airport that is full and busy at 9 am is half empty at 11 am. Airports ebb and flow,by their nature, so a few business jet sized aircraft can easily be fitted in. Hangarage is also a fluid item; need a corner under an A330's wing for two days? no problem. Need to store tools,kit and spare tyres? No problem. it happens all day, every day at all of our airports and is quite seamless. The DF in general and the AC in particular have a lot of corporate experience is using Dublin and are well versed in how to operate securely. If you want weapons security, it's not that hard to cordon off an area, provide local armed manpower and keep an aircraft thoroughly secure. This stuff is entirely doable. The notion that the AC is so utterly different than all the world's air arms, that it can't coexist with civilian aviation, is nonsense.
are we not talking about moving the whole AC to Dublin Airport
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Historically, barracks, naval bases, and military airfields were built in appropriate locations. In on going management it was the duty off the State to ensure that units and locations were free to operate and carry out their functions. The psyche that applies in all Departments is that any asset can be dispatched to oblivion or to a change of use overnight. Worst hit are units with only one location such as the Air Corps and the Naval Service. The former at Baldonnel is getting hemmed in but whose fault is that , and how will they handle future security, VIP, and Military movement flights. The Naval Base is now being hemmed in by expansion of the shift to seaward of Cork port and is lessening the manoeuvring options in Ringaskiddy Bay. Somewhere in DFR's and Statutory Instruments their are probably regulations governing trespass on or near Military lands. It seems the mandarins have no regard for the worth of a PDF or those that assume the task.
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Originally posted by DeV View Post
Surely dedicated AC space would be required
are we not talking about moving the whole AC to Dublin Airport
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We need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWe need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostWe need to be sure whose side we are on. It seems with the shearing of things like Army Apprentice School, Military Hospitals, SAR, Clancy Barracks, Kildare Barracks, Married Quarters, we are on our way to a paper PDF with the real work being done by CHC, Garda, Media, Lobbyists, on the Island and NATO and the Russians elsewhere. The reason for Military airports is freedom of action and continuous priority for training and operations. ALL PDF need full control of their assets at all times.
not that I’m advocating it
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Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
The way I see it, you can fundamentally base helicopters anywhere. Fixed wing aircraft,by needing a decent, secure runway, can also be based on any of the nine commercial airports in the State. None of the current types are so special that they need special treatment with the exception of the ejection seats in the PC-9s and the need to fit weapons, now and then. VIPs are routinely catered for in Dublin Airport, as it gives them a short road run to the centres of power,so that's not an issue. You can ring the place with soldiers inside an hour, if you have to. Same with any airport. It already has two police forces on hand. You could keep Baldonnel as an overhaul base and do nothing except the deepest stuff (most of which is done abroad anyway)there. You can farm out the helis anywhere and the Curragh should have immediate access to helis anyway, so base a couple there from the off. It's fundamentally what they are for. Helis and the rest don't have to come back to Baldonnel for the smaller inspections. Personally, I think the AC should have a serious think about it's future at Baldonnel as outside entities will be eyeing it's landbank. They might find themselves shoved out, if they don't get proactive and justify their foothold, in this climate of housing shortages and industrial buying power.
Assuming it is and the Dublin Aerospace, Aer Lingus (is that the building to East of DA?) aren’t moving, the only real areas available to build on currently are to the North (between the new runway and Naul Road) or South (between the Southern runway and Old Airport Road/R108).
other that that it would be buying private land and would need to include rerouting roads.
nothing saying it’s an insurmountable issue of course
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in effect, the future (and publicised plan) for Dublin Airport is for hard stands, offices and hangarage on the Western footprint of the airport between the two main runways. there are persistent rumours that some of the old hangarage will be knocked and tenants moved Westward. A lot of the rerouting of old roads and laying of new roads has been done. As for usage, a lot of usage is effectively temporary, ie, park for a day or two and go off again. The kind of very long term parking that you see in Shannon is not really a thing in Dublin Airport.
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