Military Barracks Maintenance/Modernisation

[ancientmariner]

Historically, barracks, naval bases, and military airfields were built in appropriate locations. In on going management it was the duty off the State to ensure that units and locations were free to operate and carry out their functions. The psyche that applies in all Departments is that any asset can be dispatched to oblivion or to a change of use overnight. Worst hit are units with only one location such as the Air Corps and the Naval Service. The former at Baldonnel is getting hemmed in but whose fault is that , and how will they handle future security, VIP, and Military movement flights. The Naval Base is now being hemmed in by expansion of the shift to seaward of Cork port and is lessening the manoeuvring options in Ringaskiddy Bay. Somewhere in DFR's and Statutory Instruments their are probably regulations governing trespass on or near Military lands. It seems the mandarins have no regard for the worth of a PDF or those that assume the task.

[DeV]

Lots of ramp space for smaller aircraft and more coming, as well as hangarage and space for offices and so on. DAA is planning to massively increase the covered footprint airside and one Learjet and four PC-12s could easily be accommodated. On any day or night, not all the ramp space and hangarage is fully taken up. An airport that is full and busy at 9 am is half empty at 11 am. Airports ebb and flow,by their nature, so a few business jet sized aircraft can easily be fitted in. Hangarage is also a fluid item; need a corner under an A330's wing for two days? no problem. Need to store tools,kit and spare tyres? No problem. it happens all day, every day at all of our airports and is quite seamless. The DF in general and the AC in particular have a lot of corporate experience is using Dublin and are well versed in how to operate securely. If you want weapons security, it's not that hard to cordon off an area, provide local armed manpower and keep an aircraft thoroughly secure. This stuff is entirely doable. The notion that the AC is so utterly different than all the world's air arms, that it can't coexist with civilian aviation, is nonsense.

Surely dedicated AC space would be required

are we not talking about moving the whole AC to Dublin Airport

[GoneToTheCanner]

Lots of ramp space for smaller aircraft and more coming, as well as hangarage and space for offices and so on. DAA is planning to massively increase the covered footprint airside and one Learjet and four PC-12s could easily be accommodated. On any day or night, not all the ramp space and hangarage is fully taken up. An airport that is full and busy at 9 am is half empty at 11 am. Airports ebb and flow,by their nature, so a few business jet sized aircraft can easily be fitted in. Hangarage is also a fluid item; need a corner under an A330's wing for two days? no problem. Need to store tools,kit and spare tyres? No problem. it happens all day, every day at all of our airports and is quite seamless. The DF in general and the AC in particular have a lot of corporate experience is using Dublin and are well versed in how to operate securely. If you want weapons security, it's not that hard to cordon off an area, provide local armed manpower and keep an aircraft thoroughly secure. This stuff is entirely doable. The notion that the AC is so utterly different than all the world's air arms, that it can't coexist with civilian aviation, is nonsense.

[DeV]

That is true, to a very great extent as it avoids needless duplication but Baldonnel is effectively being boxed in (so too is Weston, but it has less scope for big aircraft and more room to get clear of, in an emergency) by the day and God help them if there is an crash or serious accident anywhere nearby. Baldonnel doesn't have the sanitised approaches that Dublin has. Aircraft like the Learjet and PC-12s could operate out of Dublin effortlessly,as their civilian colleagues do every day of the week. Remember, Dublin will have three runways in operation shortly. You don't need cumbersome military bureaucracies to operate aircraft like Learjets and PC-12s. They have been operated for decades by lean organisations and are designed for that kind of operation. As for armed aircraft like the PC-9, obviously that requires security and so on but that's well within the grasp of the AC and our State and local airports are easy to guard, if you need to. I think the pressure is on for Baldonnel to be closed especially if the Googles or Amazons turn up with big chequebooks. You've seen how quickly they are building that centre beside Baldonnel. they could easily duplicate it inside the fence in a matter of months. I suspect the Govt would token moan a bit but would take the cash when offered and the Donners would have to shift.

Not a lot of room for more hangars, ramp space, offices, Accomodiation etc in Dublin

[GoneToTheCanner]

Whatever you decide for new locations, particularly for AC, can't have dispersed formations. It only adds to logs, maintenance, command, comms, issues and steps back to legacy problems of having formations spread over many locations. AC should all be in one site, able to deploy detachments for specific tasks as required and also utilise existing infrastructure, eg. ATC, hangerage. all with the provision of being secured for military ops and prioritised as required over commercial interests if co-located.

That is true, to a very great extent as it avoids needless duplication but Baldonnel is effectively being boxed in (so too is Weston, but it has less scope for big aircraft and more room to get clear of, in an emergency) by the day and God help them if there is an crash or serious accident anywhere nearby. Baldonnel doesn't have the sanitised approaches that Dublin has. Aircraft like the Learjet and PC-12s could operate out of Dublin effortlessly,as their civilian colleagues do every day of the week. Remember, Dublin will have three runways in operation shortly. You don't need cumbersome military bureaucracies to operate aircraft like Learjets and PC-12s. They have been operated for decades by lean organisations and are designed for that kind of operation. As for armed aircraft like the PC-9, obviously that requires security and so on but that's well within the grasp of the AC and our State and local airports are easy to guard, if you need to. I think the pressure is on for Baldonnel to be closed especially if the Googles or Amazons turn up with big chequebooks. You've seen how quickly they are building that centre beside Baldonnel. they could easily duplicate it inside the fence in a matter of months. I suspect the Govt would token moan a bit but would take the cash when offered and the Donners would have to shift.

[na grohmiti]

Is Dublin Airport too busy? The earliy morning elephant walk to the runway is a sight to behold. Not seen it an any other International airport. Trying to do routine military movements around such a busy field would have issues. Particularly when you have no other operational base.

[Truck Driver]

Whatever you decide for new locations, particularly for AC, can't have dispersed formations. It only adds to logs, maintenance, command, comms, issues and steps back to legacy problems of having formations spread over many locations. AC should all be in one site, able to deploy detachments for specific tasks as required and also utilise existing infrastructure, eg. ATC, hangerage. all with the provision of being secured for military ops and prioritised as required over commercial interests if co-located.

Which brings back to the suggestion of co-locating in Dublin Airport. I remember being greeted by the sight of a Dakota DC3 in Israeli Airforce camo, when leaving Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, in early May 2000, for instance. Along with a couple of modern fighter jets...

[X-RayOne]

Don't look at Baldonnel without considering Weston. You could easily move the rotary function to Weston, which is being revamped. Weston would bite your hand off for the work. Weston is now owned by a consortium led by one of the Collison brothers. They'd be more than happy to facilitate the Air Corps. Baldonnel is also a "dirty" site and would need remediation to clear out decades of waste buried or drained into certain parts of the Camp. I'd bet if Amazon or Google were offered it, they'd take it in a heart beat. You could move the Learjet to Weston or Dublin Airport, and operate it safely and securely, just like every other business jet in the world. Casas and PC-12s and PC-9s to Shannon or Dublin Airport. Lots of joint Mil/Civil airports worldwide,that operate just fine. You also have to understand that consideration for the welfare of the soldiery is at the bottom of the Govt's list. If a soldier has to be relocated, he/she would get a few token euro as compensation and simply ordered to move. Don't like it, go someplace else. If the DoD wants to get the DF out of Dublin City, it's to hell or to Gormo or all points West or to the Curragh, with a few token locations on the Border.

Whatever you decide for new locations, particularly for AC, can't have dispersed formations. It only adds to logs, maintenance, command, comms, issues and steps back to legacy problems of having formations spread over many locations. AC should all be in one site, able to deploy detachments for specific tasks as required and also utilise existing infrastructure, eg. ATC, hangerage. all with the provision of being secured for military ops and prioritised as required over commercial interests if co-located.

[ODIN]

Agreed with some minor points:

1. Leave the park as it is. You don't want to touch that with anything bigger than a garden fork for another 20/30 years. It can be like the Curragh though, closing of barriers on appointed dates to prevent right of way being established. Otherwise, the idle space is plenty large enough to take everything in Collins Bks as is. Problem is with expanded Cork Prison next door, I don't see many willing to take the current Collins footprint for commercial or educational use. Access won't improve either.
2. Kilworth is actually grossly under-utilised. There used to be as many buildings to the East of the public road as there is currently to the west, and the main road would make an ideal airstrip. Public traffic on it lately is down to nil. The prison was never built so the state owned land to the south should be given back. Last time I looked there was no 2 storey buildings inside the perimeter. This is a poor use of land which already sits on a sunken site.
3. The notion that crumbling buildings that once housed those who fought in the Crimean war is something of value is an opinion not held by historians or archaeologists, just the DoD and the OPW. Urgent meeting with Mr Wrecking ball required throughout. Build modern fit for purpose blocks on the footprint of the older ones. Use the same brick if you want.
4. My only concern with Finner is will coastal erosion take it back? Otherwise it makes no sense that the only barracks with its own airstrip has closed said airstrip.
5. Only the Shannon Estuary, Galway or Rathmullan are options. The Green initiative should see an end to Moneypoint in Clare, which already has a deepwater berth, but like Haulbowline will be a dirty site requiring costly cleanup.
6. Is such a thing possible? Dublin airport restricts all independent movement of aircraft as it is. Bal still has usefulness as a rotary wing only base, with the rest of your Dublin based Army units on site too. The further south you go the less affordable land banks still available.

On the park, I wouldn't envisage using it for building, but as you mentioned, right of way to the military needs to be established.

On the Curragh, your post on what was done in Templemore is the way to go. Level it and rebuild new, fit for purpose 21st century buildings.

[ancientmariner]

Somewhere in archives or in hand-ins from C&S, and Senior Staff Courses there are plans for past and future Defence needs. The population now is double that of 1940's at 5m+ and the PDF footprint has more than halved. If ever an emergency arises we will not be able to avail of ready to go facilities.to assemble and manoeuvre Brigade sized units and their supports. Military real estate is attractive as it is generally big with some training and recreational grounds that looks attractive to developers and their lobbyists. Closures and disposals MUST be offset by up to date replacements and not just a shift to Victorian era buildings and sort it out yourself with a lick of paint. PDF needs including barracks, airfields with runways, harbours and berths, training grounds, ranges of all types MUST be specified by the Uniformed Services. Relying on the Civil side leads to disposal and upheaval without adding to defence capability.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Don't look at Baldonnel without considering Weston. You could easily move the rotary function to Weston, which is being revamped. Weston would bite your hand off for the work. Weston is now owned by a consortium led by one of the Collison brothers. They'd be more than happy to facilitate the Air Corps. Baldonnel is also a "dirty" site and would need remediation to clear out decades of waste buried or drained into certain parts of the Camp. I'd bet if Amazon or Google were offered it, they'd take it in a heart beat. You could move the Learjet to Weston or Dublin Airport, and operate it safely and securely, just like every other business jet in the world. Casas and PC-12s and PC-9s to Shannon or Dublin Airport. Lots of joint Mil/Civil airports worldwide,that operate just fine. You also have to understand that consideration for the welfare of the soldiery is at the bottom of the Govt's list. If a soldier has to be relocated, he/she would get a few token euro as compensation and simply ordered to move. Don't like it, go someplace else. If the DoD wants to get the DF out of Dublin City, it's to hell or to Gormo or all points West or to the Curragh, with a few token locations on the Border.

[na grohmiti]

Personally, I think we should be looking at six locations:

1. Haulbowline, ideally the entire island would be handed to the DF, the recreational park would be CPO'd
2. Kilworth, retained and expanded to form a new Brigade HQ and house all units for Collins and Sarsfield barracks
3. The Curragh, modernised barracks to house troops and those on training
4. Finner Camp, modernise as needed, upgrade and expand the runway
5. New greenfield site on the west coast which can be accessed by the NS
6. New greenfield site in Co. Dublin which can be shared by the AC and Army and is on the M50 corridor and outside of residential and commercial areas

Maintenance of small regional buildings for community outreach, reserve training etc. akin to what the BA do (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragan...eet_drill_hall)

Agreed with some minor points:

1. Leave the park as it is. You don't want to touch that with anything bigger than a garden fork for another 20/30 years. It can be like the Curragh though, closing of barriers on appointed dates to prevent right of way being established. Otherwise, the idle space is plenty large enough to take everything in Collins Bks as is. Problem is with expanded Cork Prison next door, I don't see many willing to take the current Collins footprint for commercial or educational use. Access won't improve either.
2. Kilworth is actually grossly under-utilised. There used to be as many buildings to the East of the public road as there is currently to the west, and the main road would make an ideal airstrip. Public traffic on it lately is down to nil. The prison was never built so the state owned land to the south should be given back. Last time I looked there was no 2 storey buildings inside the perimeter. This is a poor use of land which already sits on a sunken site.
3. The notion that crumbling buildings that once housed those who fought in the Crimean war is something of value is an opinion not held by historians or archaeologists, just the DoD and the OPW. Urgent meeting with Mr Wrecking ball required throughout. Build modern fit for purpose blocks on the footprint of the older ones. Use the same brick if you want.
4. My only concern with Finner is will coastal erosion take it back? Otherwise it makes no sense that the only barracks with its own airstrip has closed said airstrip.
5. Only the Shannon Estuary, Galway or Rathmullan are options. The Green initiative should see an end to Moneypoint in Clare, which already has a deepwater berth, but like Haulbowline will be a dirty site requiring costly cleanup.
6. Is such a thing possible? Dublin airport restricts all independent movement of aircraft as it is. Bal still has usefulness as a rotary wing only base, with the rest of your Dublin based Army units on site too. The further south you go the less affordable land banks still available.

[ODIN]

Personally, I think we should be looking at six locations:

1. Haulbowline, ideally the entire island would be handed to the DF, the recreational park would be CPO'd
2. Kilworth, retained and expanded to form a new Brigade HQ and house all units for Collins and Sarsfield barracks
3. The Curragh, modernised barracks to house troops and those on training
4. Finner Camp, modernise as needed, upgrade and expand the runway
5. New greenfield site on the west coast which can be accessed by the NS
6. New greenfield site in Co. Dublin which can be shared by the AC and Army and is on the M50 corridor and outside of residential and commercial areas

Maintenance of small regional buildings for community outreach, reserve training etc. akin to what the BA do (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragan...eet_drill_hall)

[DeV]

Often spoken of was Kilbride to replace CBB

god help them

[ODIN]

So, by the sounds of it, Baldonnel and CBB are both going to be consumed and handed over the civilians in the coming years. Do we need to start to look at a few green field sites for the DF as a whole? Co-location of the Aer Corps and Army at a single base outside of Dublin as an example?