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  • #46
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
    Geneva Convention didn't get a look in.
    The Hague Conventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_C...99_and_1907%29), not the Geneva Conventions, cover the use of expanding/exploding rounds, referring to jacketed small arms rounds with exposed lead tips (hollowpoints - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_point_bullet). It does not prohibit true exploding rounds such as the 40mm round fired from the Bofors.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ackack
      Whats the effective blast radius of an ARM?

      Would i be right in saying that most conventional warheads will have a blast radius of no more than a couple of hundred meters?(open to correction)

      The EL70 can be set up, up to 2km from the flycatcher. So there is a fair possibility the gun will still be operational if the flycatcher bites the bullet.
      Don't know the exact blast radius of an ARM, but it is not a conventional warhead.... it is an area effect (Airburst) weapon. Then again, very ARM is different. Also, (I am no expert on the EL70), does the gun need to be in LOS of the radar system in order to work off it. I understand that there are several cables running between Radar & gun..... many which would be severed by an ARM

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      • #48
        Yep, the guns have to have LOS to synch them with the radar. After they've been set up they and the radar can be camoflaged as all the commands are now through the wires, but none of the equipment can be moved. Each gun has two bog standard wires to send/receive information and if they're cut they can be fixed by twisting them back together. If they've been cut by an ARM there's probably very little left of the radar though. If they've been cut by the ubiquitous sniper with a wire-cutter then whoever's fixing them will probably be on the receiving end of a bullet (or a smack on the head with the wire-cutters) I believe the radar can track cruise missiles but I'm not so sure about an ALARM coming from right over-head.
        "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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        • #49
          Modern ARMs tend to be very fast missiles also, HARM, at the end of its boost phase, is supposed to be a M3 projectile. I doubt very much if either the radar or the firecontrol/electrics are up to that kind of a traverse rate.
          Last edited by Aidan; 23 January 2006, 11:10.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by sledger
            Some additional info from an article in last years Cosantoir:


            Note: Current Suppression of Enemy Air Defence weapons like HARM all depend on RF homing for guidance and are vulnerable to emission control (EMCON) countertactics. However the Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) project is adding to the HARM Block VI Missile capability by demonstrating technology for RF homing integration with an active millimeter wave terminal seeker to provide a counter-shutdown capability. Fielding this capability could be in the 2005 timeframe.

            However the system with three guns each firing 5 shells per second coupled with good EMCON tactics has some chance of defeating incoming missiles up to HARM Block VI, especially if they are using BOFORS 3P all-target prefragmented, programmable, proximity-fuzed ammunition.

            After HARM Block VI with a combination of high rate of fire and good radar tracking and targeting the Flycatcher system may still have some chance of survival. Hopefully it'll never come to that.


            Was the rate of traverse of the EL 70 published in An Cosantoir or anywhere else?
            If the ARM is coming straight for the radar then there's not going to much of a change in bearing. Seeing as we can engage in the last, say, 10kms and the guns aren't more than 2kms from the radar then the change in bearing isn't much till a few hundred metres from the guns.
            Last edited by concussion; 25 January 2006, 04:56.
            "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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            • #51
              Hi Barry et al,
              I have always believed that the use of large-calibre (greater than standard infantry calibres) automatic weapons against human targets is supposedly banned.Needless to say, That goes out the window when the shooting starts.....the Mach 3 ARM would cover 10km in a few seconds, just time to begin "Our Father, who art.....!"
              regards
              GttC

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              • #52
                Originally posted by concussion
                Was the rate of traverse of the EL 70 published in An Cosantoir or anywhere else? If the ARM is coming straight for the radar then there's not going to much of a change in bearing. Seeing as we can engage in the last, say, 10kms and the guns aren't more than 2kms from the radar then the change in bearing isn't much till a few hundred metres from the guns.
                Do you fancy firing straight up (what goes up, must come down)? What is the maximum elevation (seeing as ALARM can come in at vertical and other missiles in the 80-90 degree category)?

                Of course, given the typical size and cross setion of a missile, its going to be very hard to see until Bang -2.

                Anyway yis are all gonna be cluster bombed from 15,000 feet.

                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
                I have always believed that the use of large-calibre (greater than standard infantry calibres) automatic weapons against human targets is supposedly banned.
                Can someone actually point this out because the Swedes have an automatic 155mm.
                Last edited by Victor; 26 January 2006, 18:57.
                Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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                • #53
                  Hi Victor
                  By "against human targets", I mean as directly against a person, in the fashion of a rifle.Artillery can be described as an area-denial weapon, rather than targeted against an individual human being. Think of it as being banned in the same fashion as napalm is supposedly banned. I remember the furore in the British press when napalm was discovered on the Falklands and there were fears that the Argentinians would turn their 35mm twin AA onto infantry targets. The press conveniently forgot that the BA were frequent users of flamethrowers, in the Crocodile and Wasp vehicle forms, in WW 2.
                  regards
                  GttC

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                  • #54
                    Would people generally accept that the L70's while largely sitting ducks against modern air forces, would be adequate against a less well equipped agressor? For example, if they were used to protect a UN base in the likes of the Ivory Coast and other regions of Africa where any opposition group would be unlikely to have the most sophisticated EW or ARM equipment, but still possess an air force of soviet era jets.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by pym
                      Would people generally accept that the L70's while largely sitting ducks against modern air forces, would be adequate against a less well equipped agressor?
                      Consider one fast jet at low - medium altitude as a fair fight against a battery of L70s. Consider all our air defence equipment (defending one position) as a fair fight against 10 fast jets at low - medium altitude dropping unguided ordnance only.

                      Originally posted by pym
                      For example, if they were used to protect a UN base in the likes of the Ivory Coast and other regions of Africa where any opposition group would be unlikely to have the most sophisticated EW or ARM equipment, but still possess an air force of soviet era jets.
                      They don't have much left. :D Forewarned, "we" might stand a chance against L-59/59, MiG-19/21 or Su-7 aircraft, but not against the larger, MiG-27, Su-24/25 or more modern aircraft.

                      Now we come to the forewarned bit, the radar's the army have, if you will pardon me, are medicore in range. I imagine the only decent radar sets the DF have are on LÉ Eithne and at Baldonnel.

                      http://www.abidjan.net/lettreouverte...er.asp?id=9044[quote]On November 6, 2004, aircraft from the Ivoirian Government struck a French military base where the rebels had been given shelter, resulting in the deaths of nine French troops and the wounding of an additional 31. In retaliation, the French military destroyed two Sukhoi-25 aircraft, in addition to five helicopters and an Ivorian army weapons cache, effectively destroying the Ivory Coast Air Force. The order to retaliate was reported to have come directly from French President Jacques Chirac.

                      The U.N. Security Council, meanwhile, held an emergency session to discuss the situation in the country and called for an end to all military operations by Ivory Coast forces.
                      In the meantime, pro-Gbagbo militants began setting fire to a number of French schools in the capital, Abidjan, and looting French property. In response to escalating tensions, the French military dispatched three Mirage jet aircraft to another French military base in Libreville in nearby Gabon, to be put on standby.

                      The French Ministry of Defence, on the following day, announced that it was dispatching as well an additional 600 troops as reinforcements; 300 of which were dispatched from Libreville, while the remaining 300, along with a squadron of gendarmes, were sent from France.

                      The destruction of the Ivoirian Air Force was a serious blow, as this was the Government’s main advantage over the rebels; the control of the skies. The French have destroyed this. This will allow the rebels to continue and allow the French to continue to manipulate the Ivory Coast at its pleasure.

                      However, there are thousands of French nationals in the Ivory Coast and it is likely that there will be retaliation by the irate Ivoirians against them.[p/quote]
                      Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Victor
                        Do you fancy firing straight up (what goes up, must come down)?.
                        I'll do what I'm told.
                        What is the maximum elevation (seeing as ALARM can come in at vertical and other missiles in the 80-90 degree category)?.
                        90 degrees
                        Of course, given the typical size and cross setion of a missile, its going to be very hard to see until Bang -2..
                        Probably. According to the published article we can but you'd have to ask someone who's done the radar course to find out.
                        Anyway yis are all gonna be cluster bombed from 15,000 feet..
                        That's ok, our we can reach that : )
                        "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

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                        • #57
                          hi all
                          I was watching a new series on the History Channel about D-Days in the Pacific and the large American ships had quadruple Bofors mounts, which were very useful against Kamikazes. The wall of AA they threw up had to be seen to believe.
                          So, where does the clip go when the four rounds are loaded in the top? How is a Bofors cocked?
                          regards
                          GttC

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                          • #58
                            That's ok, our we can reach that : )
                            Perhaps, but can ye hit something (anything) at that range?
                            :wink:

                            Seriously, in absence of radar guided SAMs to (theoretically) force fighter aircraft down into your envelope, these weapons are of no real use against any modern military opponent. Even the RBS-70 (with CONDS) is a very limited weapon.

                            However there is no suggestion that the Army will have to enage other any military aircraft. For point defence or deterrent roles, RBS-70/L-70+Flycatcher does just fine for all we need from them right now.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              hi all
                              I was watching a new series on the History Channel about D-Days in the Pacific and the large American ships had quadruple Bofors mounts, which were very useful against Kamikazes. The wall of AA they threw up had to be seen to believe.
                              So, where does the clip go when the four rounds are loaded in the top? How is a Bofors cocked?
                              regards
                              GttC
                              From memory, the L60, the clip falls out at the side of the auto loader and the weapon is cocked by a lever which is pulled to back by the number 4 on the gun crew. He is the guy who stands on the platform and loads the auto loader.

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                              • #60
                                Naval mounting for the L60...cocking handle is operated by number two...charger is thrown out the left hand side of the auto loader..ammunition was delivered in drums aluminum if I rememeber of 4 loads..screw top device......Cocking lever was put fully forward and fully to the rear for operation


                                only from memory ..and it wa twenty years ago.I only fired it once..about half adozen rounds..oerlikon then...and then the rhienmettal..SG3
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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