Penetration of 9mm parabellum,

[DeV]

I thought the BAP was now the standard weapon for armed boardings (thats in the public domain) or is it just because a BAP wouldn't be scene in the parade?

[Goldie fish]

I assume so. The Steyr is too powerful for boardings.

[fiannoglach]

I assume so. The Steyr is too powerful for boardings.

The service ammunition fired from the BAP's are more powerful than anything you could ever fire from a Steyr................OSOK

A lot of police forces are changing to 5.56 or other (4.86 PDW, 5.7 P90) to prevent overpenetration that can happen with 9mm.

[Goldie fish]

What about penetration(ooh matron). Surely the steyr would punch through more layers of bulkhead than the 9mm parabellum would?

[Dogwatch]

Steyr rifles were carried on the day for the effect, 9mm BAP & it's replacement are the standard naval boarding weapon, due to the fact it is a slower velocity round than the 5.56mm round. This should mean that the round when discharged will not penetrate a number of bulkheads and hit an 'innocent' party in another compartment on a vessel.

Attached are a number of photos of a Naval Boarding Team utilising the BAP during an Exercise.

[fiannoglach]

Surely the steyr would punch through more layers of bulkhead than the 9mm parabellum would?

Negative........... Unless it's AP.

9mm BAP & it's replacement are the standard naval boarding weapon, due to the fact it is a slower velocity round than the 5.56mm round. This should mean that the round when discharged will not penetrate a number of bulkheads and hit an 'innocent' party in another compartment on a vessel.

Negative. This is a common misconception. Just cos it looks smaller, doesn't mean it does less damage!

Speed (Velocity) does not neccessarily equal penetration. The 556 round is basically an elongated .22 round. We've all heard about it's wounding properties (Shoot 1, 2 to carry. 3 enemy out of the picture)...........OSOK.

[Dogwatch]

Negative........... Unless it's AP.



Negative. This is a common misconception. Just cos it looks smaller, doesn't mean it does less damage!

Speed (Velocity) does not neccessarily equal penetration. The 556 round is basically an elongated .22 round. We've all heard about it's wounding properties (Shoot 1, 2 to carry. 3 enemy out of the picture)...........OSOK.

9mm round is a slower velocity round, therefore better use in confined spaces, when it hits someone, it will not pentrate through them, but knock them down. That's why all HRT's throughout the world use 9mm. If you know better than the SF around the world, then you had better inform them, because they are all using 9mm. HK MP5 being a standard weapon used by SF & HRT, police SWAT etc.

[hptmurphy]

Any way..the bloody Steyr is too big...get in the way..fine for covering off from a boat..but scaling ladders etc its a hinderance...pistols do the job a lot easier..and there are occassions on board aship where a guy would need at least one had free.

MP5 would be the ideal weapon of course but in the real world its Baps..and Bods! lol

[fiannoglach]

9mm round is a slower velocity round, therefore better use in confined spaces, when it hits someone, it will not pentrate through them, but knock them down..

Not true. Have you ever used a 9mm? The ammuntion used by the DF is a fully jacketed round, it's not a hollow-point or frangible. The Colt 45 has a muzzle velocity of 442 Ms per sec, do you think this would also penetrate less?

That's why all HRT's throughout the world use 9mm. If you know better than the SF around the world, then you had better inform them, because they are all using 9mm. HK MP5 being a standard weapon used by SF & HRT, police SWAT etc.

You are correct I do. The MP5 is only one of any number of weapons and calibres used by these units. Not all HRT's use the MP5 or 9mm for that matter.

[Acidsphere]

Fiannoglach, what police force is that in the 2nd picture?

[Muzzle]

Iv tested 9mm and .223/5.56 on wood (cut up tree trunks) and steel targets. .223 pisses through both no problem. 9mm generally would not pass through either. Iv a load of 9mm heads recoverd intact from the wood or from the ground around it.

[Barry]

I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this. I promised myself.

fiannoglach......what in the hell are you smoking? 9mm Parabellum is a pistol round. 5.56mm SS109 is a rifle round. SS109 has more than 4 times the muzzle energy of 9mm, not to mention a smaller cross section (smaller hole to make), and you're saying that it won't go through more steel plate than 9mm? Saying that police forces are switching to 5.56mm because of penetration problems with 9mm? Ever consider that the adoption of 5.56mm (and other rounds providing superior armour penetration) might be because of the increase in criminals wearing body armour?

And .45 doesn't have a muzzle velocity of 442m/s. .357 Magnum, however, does.

Here's a website you might want to have a look at before you go posting any more hocus pocus ballistics: http://www.theboxotruth.com/
It's not the most scientific, but I'd trust his findings long before I'd believe you.

(Ballistic data taken from http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm and http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm )

[ex pat 007]

Interesting stuff here as well
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...stol_ammo.html
and here.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...56mm_ammo.html

TTFN

[Saracen]

I haven't got any facts to hand (company filters everything to do with weapons out) but the reason 9mm is used is for stopping power. The subsonic round combined with larger cross section area applies more force to the Tango i.e knocking him down. I know the force applied by a 7.62mm round/supersonic is 300 Ibs per square inch (I'm going from memory on that), that's a lot of stopping power so its safe to estimate that the Steyr at 5.56mm/supersonic would have less and the BAP 9mm/subsonic would be about the same as the 7.62mm. As for room takedown in confined areas, such as ships, the pistol is preferred due to the weapons short length and that a Tango can step inside the barrel of a rifle causing the Assault Team problems.

[Barry]

9mm parabellum isn't a subsonic round. You can get subsonic 9mm, but it will not perform the same as proper military ammunition.

Saying that it transfers a certain force to a target assumes that it hits one point and stops cold. A bullet hitting human tissue does not do this. It will either enter and come to a stop, dumping all of it's energy, or it will enter and exit at a lower velocity, having dumped some of its energy in the process. This isn't a function of cross section (the resistance experienced by the round in the human body is, however), it is a function of projectile weight and velocity.

Lets compare some muzzle energies: (simplest way of comparing the damage that a round can do to someone)
9mm parabellum: 543J
.45 ACP: 326/494J (2 different FMJ rounds, of different weights)
5.56mm SS109: 1798J
7.62X51 NATO: 2890-3352J

As you can see, a rifle round has a much higher muzzle energy than a pistol round.

BAPs are preferred because they do not penetrate anywhere near as much as a rifle round and are less bulky, and what was used before (the Gustav, also in 9mm) is no longer in service