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  • Only when the NSR hierarchy decide what they are willing to accept can an honest discussion about equipment requirements be conducted. In the last 3 years alone numerous options have been looked at (ex-NS rhibs, EX-RNLI Merseys etc.) and all have fallen at the same hurdle.

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    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      I was referring to the URNU that they could have done it all summer if they had wanted too.

      However as you had raised the term VFM; perhaps you could define why the NSR is VFM ? and what would be the VFM criteria for a new NSR vessel(s)?
      I am really interested in the answer as it is not an easy one and hence I would like to know.
      (Value for money is based not only on the minimum purchase price (economy) but also on the maximum efficiency and effectiveness of the purchase.)
      In Military/Naval terms VFM is not the criteria in a cash sense. If you spend 100m on a ship or a number of aircraft or weapon systems, it is not because it was cheap rather what it can do to secure the state and defend it's resources. If it can't do that ,it isn't VFM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
        In Military/Naval terms VFM is not the criteria in a cash sense. If you spend 100m on a ship or a number of aircraft or weapon systems, it is not because it was cheap rather what it can do to secure the state and defend it's resources. If it can't do that ,it isn't VFM.
        You have used different words but the definition is still the same:
        Value for money is based not only on the minimum purchase price (economy) but also on the maximum efficiency and effectiveness of the purchase.

        Economy: how much does it costs. This will be the purchase and running costs including the cost of crew
        Efficiency: how efficient can it do the tasks assigned
        Effectiveness: how well it can do the tasks assigned

        All three headlines can be broken into multiple criteria which can be assigned a weighting to allow a VFM analysis to be done. But not all criteria need to be handled the same, there can be some which can have a minimum value. It can be the cheapest ship but if it can't float then it has not reach the minimum value in a mandatory criteria so VFM = 0.

        Taking the headline: Efficiency.
        There could be a criteria "Utilsation rate"; how many days per year would the vessel be utilised?
        This could be assigned a minimum value of xx days per reservist in value terms. Then the actual number is assigned a value which allows it to be compared with other criteria. Utilisation rate is a objective criteria "xx days", but VFM also allows for subjective criteria to be compared; "NSR image" would be an example. Would the fact that the NSR has a couple of 20m high speed boats improve the image of the NSR and this aid recruitment & retention. This could be assessed in a proper VFM, so whenever someone uses VFM to justify a position I would expect that the key criteria are known. This then allows for a debate.
        Last edited by EUFighter; 23 July 2020, 08:38.

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        • While the current strength of the NSR is 120, the last figure I have for the establishment was 300.
          I would expect that any equipment planning is done against establishment rather than current strength. If not then the current strength will quickly become establishment and the downward spiral continues.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            I was referring to the URNU that they could have done it all summer if they had wanted too.

            However as you had raised the term VFM; perhaps you could define why the NSR is VFM ? and what would be the VFM criteria for a new NSR vessel(s)?
            I am really interested in the answer as it is not an easy one and hence I would like to know.
            (Value for money is based not only on the minimum purchase price (economy) but also on the maximum efficiency and effectiveness of the purchase.)
            Buy a fleet of small boats to be operated by a very reduced reserve is not Value For Money, given their time is often required else where as in ships crewing duties, so with reduced levels the boats would not get maximum use. There is a curve where expenditure vs use indicates that a purchase was worth while.To buy four boats for the remaining reservists and base them at their locations would be well below optimal use to include berthage, servicing etc.

            While the current strength of the NSR is 120, the last figure I have for the establishment was 300.
            I would expect that any equipment planning is done against establishment rather than current strength. If not then the current strength will quickly become establishment and the downward spiral continues.
            I would look at the trends of current manning levels or five years as a better indicator as establishment figures have been absolute pie in the sky for many years.
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 23 July 2020, 09:38.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • The way I see it, from a VFM point of view, if you are going to get any water craft for the NSR, it cannot be sitting idle in a boatyard for the six months of the off season.
              This is why, in my opinion the obvious choice is a RIB with covered crew space. All the later OPVs have a crane on the stern capable of lifting a RIB onto a deck mounted cradle. When these craft are not in use locally by NSR, they can be carried aboard ship as required, and embarked NSR can use them in the open seas, rather than coastal waters.

              https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2018.pdf

              Comment


              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                Buy a fleet of small boats to be operated by a very reduced reserve is not Value For Money, given their time is often required else where as in ships crewing duties, so with reduced levels the boats would not get maximum use. There is a curve where expenditure vs use indicates that a purchase was worth while.To buy four boats for the remaining reservists and base them at their locations would be well below optimal use to include berthage, servicing etc.



                I would look at the trends of current manning levels or five years as a better indicator as establishment figures have been absolute pie in the sky for many years.
                This Value for Money mantra is used to do nothing that might upset rigid budgets. If there were, say three Archer Type vessels, they could have full and continuous use by all parts of the navy. They could be used on location or home ported at Haulbowline. June - August for flotilla training with reservists and rest of year, attached to the school for boat handling and general training for cadets, young officers and all junior ranks. We continually put in artificial braking systems that curtails recruiting, training, overseas deployment. We are the only Navy that I know that runs without a training fleet and doesn't give ship handling opportunities to it's officers until they assume command.

                Comment


                • hey could be used on location or home ported at Haulbowline. June - August for flotilla training with reservists and rest of year, attached to the school for boat handling and general training for cadets, young officers and all junior rank
                  Pray tell, where are all these people you speak of that require small boat training, that if indeed they do exist need to be at sea keeping vessels in operation.
                  Last edited by hptmurphy; 23 July 2020, 12:59.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                    In Military/Naval terms VFM is not the criteria in a cash sense. If you spend 100m on a ship or a number of aircraft or weapon systems, it is not because it was cheap rather what it can do to secure the state and defend it's resources. If it can't do that ,it isn't VFM.
                    If it spends 60+% of its time tied up because the crew are only available at weekends it isn’t VFM either

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      The way I see it, from a VFM point of view, if you are going to get any water craft for the NSR, it cannot be sitting idle in a boatyard for the six months of the off season.
                      This is why, in my opinion the obvious choice is a RIB with covered crew space. All the later OPVs have a crane on the stern capable of lifting a RIB onto a deck mounted cradle. When these craft are not in use locally by NSR, they can be carried aboard ship as required, and embarked NSR can use them in the open seas, rather than coastal waters.

                      https://products.damen.com/-/media/P...00_05_2018.pdf
                      I assume that they wouldn’t work with the Davitts (as is)? Can they be carried via road on a trailer ?

                      Of course an advantage that standard (non-shelter) RHIBs is that they can be housed at the Coy location (the Cork based one being the only one with direct access to the water) And driven to a launching location. Also advantages in NS commonality.

                      There is disadvantages of course.

                      Comment


                      • It won't connect to the Davitts, but it could be handled by the Effer, with convenient lifting points on the bollards. The old boats were frequently moved about by trailer, though not pulled by a 4x4.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          If it spends 60+% of its time tied up because the crew are only available at weekends it isn’t VFM either
                          The current NS fleet spends 60+% of its time tied up! And that was before we had 2 out of service and 1 in refit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            The current NS fleet spends 60+% of its time tied up! And that was before we had 2 out of service and 1 in refit.
                            Not disputing it, but I assume you have a source to support that availability?

                            Comment


                            • The NSR is a part-time volunteer force and as such will compete with all the other leisure activities people have today. A future potential reservist is not going to see the Reserve as their primary source of income. They have to give up time which they could be spending in the local GAA or golf club or just down the pub. So making them travel longs distances or just sitting in a room getting lectures is not going to improve the recruitment or retention situation. The current set-up does not work and banging on more with the same mantra will not change it. There comes a time when it is necessary to change direction.

                              Is there interest in the wider public for a volunteer marine service? If the size of the Sea Scouts are anything to go by then maybe the answer is yes (currently 3,800 in the Sea Scouts). Why do I mention the Sea Scouts, well most could just join the local sailing club but they instead go into the semi-military styled scout movement. They are the potential NS members of tomorrow. But why do these organisation and others like the GAA succeed? In the main because they are local. There is no 2hr car trip to get to the local branch, it is easily reached. And just to say it again the Reserves are a leisure activity!

                              While many will be prepared to travel to Haulbowline for some specialist training they will not be prepared to do that every weekend. If we look across the Irish Sea, the Brits try and have their reservists not more than an hour away from their units base. If we look at even the next two closest cities Limerick and Waterford both are well over this travelling time. And forget the hour if trying to get out of Dublin on a Friday afternoon. So if there is to be a NSR that is not limited to Cork city area then the local units need to be built up.

                              Before moving on there is a need to tackle the "elephant in the room", that is "the reservist are need on-board the NS vessels to fill gaps". No, that is an abuse, the reserves are an emergency fall-back capability, they should not be seen in peacetime as a gap filler. The recruitment and retention issues in the NS need to be solved so that the NS has the numbers it needs to crew properly the fleet. That is not to say that reservist cannot have a role aboard a NS vessel but these should be temporary. It can be that for a mission like for example the recent rescue missions that a reservist with medical background could be seconded to a vessel. In the reserves there can be a great pool of skills that may be difficult to have in the NS itself. If the NS ever does get a MRV like the VARD 7-313 then this type of secondment will become increasingly necessary if the potential of such a vessel is to be fully exploited. And then there are the cases were a reservist has interest in joining the NS full time, here a couple of weeks aboard would give a good impression if that is what they want and are capable of.

                              If the premise that units need to be local is accepted then they will need their own boats, it is the boat that will attract. Such a boat needs to an all-weather boat to enable usage all year round. It would need to of a size that could be handled by a small crew but capable of carrying more. It would need to of a size that it could have a military function and if necessary be armed (fitted for but not with). That for me would be a vessel 20-30m in length, a minimum crew of 4-5 and capable of talking 8-12 addition. It would be equipped with a RIB and fitted for a RWS up to 30mm (or whatever the future second armament is of the OPVs). Be capable of 25-30kts, range of 1000nm (enough to circumnavigate the complete island), and be capable of carrying enough stores for 7 days at sea.

                              If the NSR is to survive it needs to change radically as does the whole DF. The modern world is not the same as for 30-40 years ago, it has radically changed and that change continues. To those that say VFM or not enough personnel, I say lets try something different. There needs to be a new model, one that is more a tune with the modern world. Part would be a partial modelling on the URNU, third level students have a long holiday each summer, would it be too much to have them sign up as reservists for the period of their course and as part of the deal they have to bring the majority of their summer break on a NSR vessel (naturally for some remuneration). The non-student reservists doing then 2 weeks each summer on board and all doing every second weekend outside this period. The only was to get people interested in the NS is to get them young, the NSR has a role to play here.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                Not disputing it, but I assume you have a source to support that availability?
                                The annual reports of the number of sea days.

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