How Will The Navy Cope

[agustafan]

Hi, I'm new to the forums, so sorry if this seems like a silly question. But with Ireland set to increase it's territorial waters to 600 miles off-shore, how will it cope? I remember watching the documentary 'The Navy' on RTÉ a while ago and they described patroling Irish territorial waters as having 1 Garda patrol car for the whole of Leinster. With no further investment in extra CASA's for the Air Corps to aid the Navy in patrolling Irish waters, and no further investment in smaller patrol ships for the Navy, how will they cope in patrolling this extra water? By not investing in the navy or the air corps when applying to the UN for this extra territorial water, is our government not basically welcoming drug trafficers with open arms?

Cheers,

James

[Goldie fish]

What you need to ask is , has there been a policy decision NOT to prevent smuggling? Does the cost of prevention outweigh the return when you only ever capture 10%

As it stands, Customs have one Patrol boat, based in the south coast. The NS patrol the rest of the Island with 8 ships, and it is pure luck that we have 8, and the current government feel we should be thanking them for such a "massive" fleet in their eyes.

By current figures, its one patrol car for the whole of Ireland.

Smaller Patrol ships are a no no. Read elsewhere, seas are getting bigger, if you want operational usefulness you need Larger ships, and more of them. Otherwise your small ships will be stuck sheltering from the heavy seas, while the smuggling is done from large vessels.

[Marius]

Hi, I'm new to the forums, so sorry if this seems like a silly question. But with Ireland set to increase it's territorial waters to 600 miles off-shore, how will it cope? I remember watching the documentary 'The Navy' on RTÉ a while ago and they described patroling Irish territorial waters as having 1 Garda patrol car for the whole of Leinster. With no further investment in extra CASA's for the Air Corps to aid the Navy in patrolling Irish waters, and no further investment in smaller patrol ships for the Navy, how will they cope in patrolling this extra water? By not investing in the navy or the air corps when applying to the UN for this extra territorial water, is our government not basically welcoming drug trafficers with open arms?

Cheers,

James

Hey
Not much point in using a nomme de guerre like 'augustafan' if you sign-off as 'James'

Cheers,

Marius

[hptmurphy]

Freudian slip...maybe he is James Bond come to save us from evil drug lords.

[criodan]

Our we obliged under EU law to secure our borders or something?

Anyway like always in Ireland it comes down to figures or lack of. Under the White Paper there was agreement on eight ships, I never thought this was enough and in particular with the possible expansion of out territorial waters it certainly wont be enough. The government have an obligation to do all they can to prevent drugs, weapons, people or intercept any other illegal activity where they can. It is pointless increasing the Gardai numbers (though welcomed) if they are not putting all the resources possible into intercepting them upon arrival into our waters thus manifesting into problems later on etc.

Now money is a fine thing to say we need more of etc but the DF need more period. This is to come from govt. coffers, ie tax payer whilst the senior defence officers liaising with Dept. Defence & Dept. Finance need to look at how to better utilise existing resources.

I have expressed my opinions regarding the Air Corps and its reduction and I also feel the Reserve should also be abolished completely, now I’m smiling here as I write as I anticipate the beating I’m going to cop for saying the latter but there you go. All I can say is think of the thread and don’t go off topic slagging me!!! No government is going to add another billion to our defence budget and I don’t even know if we need that much to increase the size (I take it they will need to increase in size to handle the seas?) and number of these ships but the money has to come from somewhere.

I asked santa for a money tree and all I got was two pairs of socks…

[ropebag]

the 200 mile Economic zone isn't Irelands by absolute right - the 12 mile territorial limit is.

part of the submission to the UN for Ireland to be given juristiction over additional sea area is its willingness and ability to police those sea areas. if the UN felt that Ireland was not in a position to police those waters effectively they would seek to retain them as international waters where any interested Warship may police them in accordance with International Maritime Law.

WRT you point regarding cutting reserve forces in order to more correctly fund the INS given its new responsibilties - if the RDF remains an Irish version of the 1980's TA, a service that is only activated in the most dire of circumstances, then you may well have a point. no such threat remotely presents itself - nor is it conceivable how it could do so, therefore any spending on such a 'capability' is money wasted. however if the RDF were to become an Irish version of the current TA, an organisation that provides a constant stream of both formed units and individual placements to supplement the Regular forces as they conduct their operations both at home and abroad then it could provide excellent value for money.

in a way the expantion of Naval capability negates the 'either/or' question WRT naval or military strength. other EU states will see an significantly enhanced and modernised Irish Navy - that they have in part helped to fund - with what looks like a 'mini' LPD, half a dozen shiny new medium lift helicopters, a re-invgorated and modernised Army - that EU enhanced prosperity has helped to fund - and they will start to place real political pressure for a serious increace in the military contributions that Ireland makes towards EU/European security. sitting at the top table of the EU means helping to take real responsibilty for European security, that means big deployments and not waiting for the permission of the Chinese before doing them.

while Irelands military consisted of a few ancient fisheries protection vessels, the Free Clothes Association and a couple of AllouetteIII's no one expected them to do anything, with a well equiped and trained Army, a mini Amphibious capability and a first world economy Ireland will find that EU indulgence of her hyper-sensitivity towards foreign deployments - and spending serious money on defence - will evaporate.

[morpheus]

dont just say you think we should be abolished, without giving valid reasons backed up by facts!

[thebig C]

The Reserves Forces don't cost that much money. The big expense in the Defence budget is pay and allowances for the PDF. If the Naval Service is to receive additional funding for more ships and crews - without increasing overall defence expenditure - then the Army would have to be reduced in size. Since the main operational requirement for the Army is overseas deployment, and the number involved is restricted to a maximum of 850 at any one time, then even allowing for rotations and training, it's hard to see why an Army ten times that size is required.

[ZULU]

dont just say you think we should be abolished, without giving valid reasons backed up by facts!

I think he did

no such threat remotely presents itself - nor is it conceivable how it could do so, therefore any spending on such a 'capability' is money wasted.

However if the RDF were to become an Irish version of the current TA, an organisation that provides a constant stream of both formed units and individual placements to supplement the Regular forces as they conduct their operations both at home and abroad then it could provide excellent value for money.

[criodan]

Yes, the Reserve would not consume the vast percentage of the DF nor did I suggest it did. Resource allocation is what I was referring to and I most certainly would not advocate pay cuts/freezes or any interference with the pension schemes.

Even if Ireland does not take on the extra area concerned we still can not properly intercept illegal activity.

The threats that face Ireland are not coming from hostile nations but are coming in the form of the activities mentioned above in my first post. The question must be asked, what is our immediate threat presently and in the future? Do we need bigger and stronger ships that will require more personnel within the navy, possible require new naval bases or current upgrades and take a larger percentage of the DF budget to enable us to fight these crimes or do we need to keep it the same size and keep a reserve force that “may” be needed. I’m only asking the question I am not saying it has to be so.

The AC and any other element of the DF should be included in the valuation also.

The reality is the money has to come from somewhere and the choices have to be made. This is of no reflection on the RDF in any shape or form it is, like many things, a numbers game.