Uses for the NSR.

[popeye]

I joined ASM in 1985 and in that time I have seen it change in my opion for the better. I am dissappointed that the thread is starting to take on a them and us theme. The crews of NS ships are amongest the hardest working pers. in the Defence Forces, and not only do they work long hours they spend a long time away from family and friends. This in mind they have the right to expect high standards from pers joining their ships ( and lets not forget it is their home as well). Most NSR pers who go to sea are totally committed, and it is a harsh reality that we face when we reconise the higher rank you hold the less use you are to a ship.
However the seamen who go out each year and who slot in as crew members are brought to the standard by the Officers and NCOs who give their time all through the year to see this is attained. I agree there is dead weight but that is life and we have to live with it. There is dead weight in the PDF as well
.
Officers and Senior NCOs will never replace their PDF counter parts onboard ships and that is a fact of life, the RN reconise this as well, you only learn your trade at sea.
Most Senior NSR pers want to muck in at sea but they are told they are not allowed, ie NCOs cleaning and painting ect.

From my own experiance at sea the NS will alwys welcome you on board and every one will go out of their way to try and help you . There are horror stories of NSR pers throwing their weight around but these are in the minority, take us as you find us and don't tar us all with the same brush.
Sorry for going on but I felt this had to be said.

[Vice Admiral]

....can we think of more useful things for NSR to be doing than taking jollys with the Service.

I fully believe the NSR ratings are genuinely providing relief and I myself have been thanked personally by ships captains, XO's and coxn's for my part in putting them there. I have been to sea and worked a minimum 12 hour day most days catching sleep in snatches – you know what that is like and I wouldn’t call it a jolly.

The practice of putting NSR NCO's out to sea in appointments? Not aware of it happening TBH except with leading hands who often act as i/c of a watch (usually with the consent of the XO) for the 2nd half of a three week patrol. The revolt you speak of where NS ratings have "objected" , yes I have heard of cases of it and the behaviour of NS NCO's allowing this is absolutely appalling. When the first one of these incidents didn’t result in a charge the NS really let itself down badly, and before someone says it in the cases I have heard of NSR NCO’s were not acting the p**ick but trying to direct personnel to required tasks and in one case was merely relaying an instruction from higher authority.

Snr NSR NCO’s out for Jollies, they should have something to do I agree, but remember these are the people who have held the unit together for years they shouldn’t be begrudged too much if they are out every second or third year. Picture a unit of the AR where none of the CS’s or Officers never go on tactics or F/DIBUA and never did even as privates – what would today’s private soldiers think of them?

Your point about people who want to become NCO’s should undergo much more rigorous training has merit and the new syllabi lay down a much tougher path, both in terms of seagoing time to be accumulated and professional courses to be completed but the changes this will bring about are generational. It takes years to flush through the system. In the past the NS ignored the Slua – the requirements laid down for promotion were laughable but even worse they weren’t even applied. This has changed.

The NSR as a harbour patrol, already discussed and dismissed by command…… requires legislation, conflicts with Garda, puts military “on the streets” outside of an ATCP role, if you actually need such a body of people then you need them in a lot more places than Cork harbour, there is I believe legislation being prepared to give the coastguard some powers to fill the role you describe but that is a long time coming.

I don’t want to come across as dismissive of your post and believe you question is genuine and it has been pondered by many, in the absence of other ideas the way I would like to see it push forward is :

Let the ratings continue to go to sea and provide relief.
Let the AB’s go on the POTS and get promoted with the new syllabi/criteria that are in place and then go to sea as Leading hands i/c of a watch & DPO alongside the base or oil wharf.
When the L/S goes for PO then fisheries could form a part of their job on board. Let the NSR PO’s do the boarding’s. & DPO alongside the base or oil wharf.
When they get Chief let them out on a Jolly every second or third year – between the SCPO’s and Chiefs there are only 16 of them. But remember it’s as much a networking exercise as anything else.
When commissioned – fisheries, understudy OOW, OOD alongside, it’s also a networking exercise and you know as well as I do that contacts get you a long long way when you want or need something for your unit/ship.

To all this don’t forget civilian/other incidental skills like IT, languages, carpenters, etc... while there is no appointment for them on board the presence of people with them has been appreciated and used to the ships advantage many times. The point about launches for the NSR as intermediate training vessels, you won’t get the money for these unless you can show a tangible return for the investment – the return Bitter Boy describes is already being achieved – reservists at sea at a training level satisfactory to NS needs.

Bitter Boys comment about core unit activities being neglected is true…they don’t give a monkeys about what equipment we have or what state it is in unless bodies stop going to sea.

[hptmurphy]

Most NSR pers who go to sea are totally committed, and it is a harsh reality that we face when we reconise the higher rank you hold the less use you are to a ship

Very valid point, the having of senior rates giving the junior lads a dig out with day to day tasks at sea undermines the rank of the standing senior rates...so thats understandable.

They are also undermining their own rank structure ..without realising it. Unfortunately this is where rank comes into being again . Specialist Branches within the NS don't have equivalents in the NSR...while an NSR guy is a PO /Sea..technically his is not as he will not have Bosun , RP1. SG1 etc as will the NS PO/Sea..same applies to the engineering branch where a guy may hold equivalent rank...with no technical quailfication.

Apart from Deck hands or helmsmen with again the basic courses in safety and damage control carried out, only a very certain few have realistically a place on a NS vessels.

Jolly's are not a good idea as people from bothsides of the service who have to put in watches, do their share actually look down on the fact they have to work while some are passengers.

Trying to use parts of the NSR for crew replacement theoretically is sound, but trying to use people who obviously have no place in the crewing of the ship seems to be causing problems.

I'm commneting on the enlisted side as opposed to the officers side as having served with memebers from both sides of the divide..some make it..others don't.And my lack of knowledge of their training while at sea ..dosen't give me the right to criticise.

[DeV]

As regards to training standards of NSR NCOs, I know a L/S (who transferred from the FCA) who works in the merchant navy and has a degree in nautical science.

[Goldie fish]

He should be an officer then, by all logic.

[popeye]

With regard to this NCO it is not fair to single them out as the NSR is a small organisation and this person will be know.
NSR pers with Merchant Navy tickets are few and far between.
The new establishment for 12 TSOs will help in bringing up the skills base.
When senior pers go to sea we are not on jollies, if all that you do for your trip is see how the NS operate then you have learned more than all the courses that we run. When we deploy on the ships we are joining an operational unit and to get the same insight AR members would have to go over seas, a NS ship goes from peace to war at the push of a button.

[thebig C]

Realistically, NSR members should have some sort of Nautical background. Ideally it should be staffed with people who already work in the maritime sector. However apart from fisheries, this nation doesn't have much in that line, and if they did, would the NS even recognise their civilian qualifications?

A nautical background doesn't necessarily mean working in the maritime sector. There are plenty of people involved in watersports, and sailing in particular. If you look back to the Royal Navy in WWII, there was a difference between the RNR - usually Merchant Navy or fishermen - and the RNVR, often yachtsmen.

The RNLI seems to be able to function successfully with part-time volunteers.

[Vice Admiral]

The qualification doesn't entitle you to a commission.

Logically if he/she has current watchkeeping qualifications then they should be put forward for interview to fill one of the new professional appointments.

[hptmurphy]

When senior pers go to sea we are not on jollies,

What position can a SNCO hold on a naval vessel that is not already held by somebody more qualified in the role.

[trellheim]

putting a toe in the water here so to speak

Given the close integration between NS/NSR would it not be acceptable for the NS SNCO to go on leave and the NSR SNCO just replace him while he's away ?

[techman1]

putting a toe in the water here so to speak

Given the close integration between NS/NSR would it not be acceptable for the NS SNCO to go on leave and the NSR SNCO just replace him while he's away ?

The vast majority of NSR SNCO are not qualified to hold positions on the Ships'. Due to the time it takes to attend courses and learn from job experience this may never happen. Although there are a couple of NCOs' in the NSR who have served in the NS, these folks can and do, do relief's.

[hptmurphy]

Given the close integration between NS/NSR would it not be acceptable for the NS SNCO to go on leave and the NSR SNCO just replace him while he's away

Not a hope in jaysus!

read what I said earlier about someone who is a PO/Sea in the NSR as opposed to a PO/Sea NSR...basic difference usually adds up to about ten years sea time...and that is the hugest division of all.

In fairness the only place there can be some equality is at junior rating level where rank doesn't play a factor apart from Laeding hand Rank,

[macca]

NSR pers with Merchant Navy tickets are few and far between.

Well there's already three in Waterford Unit and two in Cork with at least three more in training, but you're right TSOs will bring great benefits

[DeV]

Looking at the book on the Niamh's journey to the Far East, NCOs & officers it was crewed like this (I know this may be different from normal) could some of these posts (potentially) be filled by NSR personnel on operational patrols?:

Navigation Offr - S/Lt
Coxswain - CPO
SPO Supplies - SPO
Boatswain - PO
PO Cook - PO
PO Steward - PO
3 x L/S
L/Cook
L/Steward

[Goldie fish]

Short answer, not a chance, apart from perhaps the Cook/Steward jobs(if they still exist) if the NSR replacement already worked in the catering industry aboard cruise Liners.

Nav Officer needs a class 3 Watchkeeping at least, as well as be well versed in fisheries legislation, as they may need to give evidence for a prosecution for illegal fishing in court.

The Courses required for most of the other positions all involve specific quantities of seatime. Not practical or possible to achieve this when limited to operating aboard ship for 3 weeks in a year.
For example, if I might draw a civilian comparison. I was required to do 10 hours steering to qualify for my helmsman ticket when I worked on a cargo ship. In 4 months trading, I achieved 7 hours of this.
A ship is a busy place, and there isnt always time to concentrate on the training of full time crew, never mind part time.