Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MV Zeran, flag of convenience?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MV Zeran, flag of convenience?

    http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/...00-h/Zeran.jpg

    Above is the ship that's taking Irish & Dutch equipment bound for Chad

    Now for what is most likely a daft civvie suggestion:

    I remember watching that RTE series on life in the navy, one of the officers in training said she was going to be spending some time with the Merchant Navy as part of her training.

    Would it be feasible for the Navy to purchase or part purchase a dedicated cargo vessel, not something that would be used for patrols, and use it as part of the training routine and then when needs demand it, use it to transport military supplies for operations overseas?

    They could pay contractors for roles that couldn't be fulfilled by naval personnel (the Air Corps did this with the GIV years ago) with the money raised by normal shipping duties during the year, or take on trainees from other Naval services.

    Stark raving mad?
    Last edited by pym; 25 March 2008, 14:38.

  • #2
    Originally posted by pym View Post
    Now for what is most likely a daft civvie suggestion:

    Would it be feasible for the Navy to purchase or part purchase a dedicated cargo vessel, not something that would be used for patrols, and use it as part of the training routine and then when needs demand it, use it to transport military supplies for operations overseas?

    They could pay contractors for roles that couldn't be fulfilled by naval personnel

    Stark raving mad?
    Not mad at all Pym. AWSR Shipping provide the Ministry of Defence with a 20 year Strategic Sealift Service.

    AWSR Shipping is responsible for the provision of the crews, operation and maintenance of the ships – which are not warships - throughout the life of the contract. While the ships are in MOD use, AWSR must provide completely British officer and merchant seaman crews for the ships.

    Maybe the Irish Government could look into a similar partnership?.

    Below is one of the vessels, Hurst point.

    Last edited by pmtts; 25 March 2008, 17:51.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pym View Post
      http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/...00-h/Zeran.jpg

      Above is the ship that's taking Irish & Dutch equipment bound for Chad

      Now for what is most likely a daft civvie suggestion:

      I remember watching that RTE series on life in the navy, one of the officers in training said she was going to be spending some time with the Merchant Navy as part of her training.

      Would it be feasible for the Navy to purchase or part purchase a dedicated cargo vessel, not something that would be used for patrols, and use it as part of the training routine and then when needs demand it, use it to transport military supplies for operations overseas?

      They could pay contractors for roles that couldn't be fulfilled by naval personnel (the Air Corps did this with the GIV years ago) with the money raised by normal shipping duties during the year, or take on trainees from other Naval services.

      Stark raving mad?

      Lets just hope the ship doesn't make an unscheduled pit stop like what happened the BElgians!
      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by pym View Post
        http://www.shipspotting.com/modules/...00-h/Zeran.jpg

        Above is the ship that's taking Irish & Dutch equipment bound for Chad

        Now for what is most likely a daft civvie suggestion:

        I remember watching that RTE series on life in the navy, one of the officers in training said she was going to be spending some time with the Merchant Navy as part of her training.

        Would it be feasible for the Navy to purchase or part purchase a dedicated cargo vessel, not something that would be used for patrols, and use it as part of the training routine and then when needs demand it, use it to transport military supplies for operations overseas?

        They could pay contractors for roles that couldn't be fulfilled by naval personnel (the Air Corps did this with the GIV years ago) with the money raised by normal shipping duties during the year, or take on trainees from other Naval services.

        Stark raving mad?
        That would be the role of the Extended Patrol Vessel. Patrol normally when not in use for transport of Troops and equipment.


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

        Comment


        • #5
          MV Zeran, flag of convenience?

          When I supported a larger blue-green ship with more lane meters than a MEKO 200 MRV, the replies received here were negative to say the least. Yesterday the MV Zeran loaded over 100 vehicles and 175 20 ft. containers to support a force of about 380 personnel in Chad. The Irish blue-green ship should be much larger than New Zealand's Canterbury, possibly about the size of a Dutch Rotterdam. The Irish flew the troops in, but their equipment, vehicle, and supplies won't reach Chad for another two weeks. One thing is for certain, Ireland's army needs more than 390 lane meters for peacekeeping.

          What is really sick about this episode is the usage of a flag of convenience ship, the MV Zeran. Why not an Irish flagged merchant ship, or a western European nation besides Malta, or is it Poland? Something the Irish PM criticized before. Oh, listen to my words, not my deeds.
          Last edited by Sea Toby; 26 March 2008, 05:50.

          Comment


          • #6
            MV Zeran is registered in Valetta, Malta. Its owners were the successful bidder in a tender that was advertised in accordance with European rules.
            http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/sh...x?ID=FEB098184


            The Irish Troops using the equipment on Zeran, have not yet arrived, or even departed for Chad.
            What is your exact issue with using a Maltese registered vessel? Has the ITF had issues with this vessel in the past?

            http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0325/9ne...53008,null,230
            Last edited by Goldie fish; 26 March 2008, 09:33.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #7
              if memory serves me correctly, some south american nations own merchant vessels, which they use for training recruits and commercial charter when its not needed.

              As for the larger ship, a deployment of this size is not going to be a frequent event, it will happen once every few years or so, something like the rotterdam would be excessive and a white elephant.
              Last edited by paul g; 26 March 2008, 10:42.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sea Toby View Post
                What is really sick about this episode is the usage of a flag of convenience ship, the MV Zeran. Why not an Irish flagged merchant ship, or a western European nation besides Malta, or is it Poland? Something the Irish PM criticized before. Oh, listen to my words, not my deeds.
                In this day and age its all down to the lowest bidder for the tender, as is usual when looking for anybody to supply anything for the military.

                Malta by the way, is a member of the E.U. so whats the problem with using a vessel Registered there??

                The purchase of a ship especially for this type of work, (which in reality is once in a blue moon) is not justifiable to the Irish Taxpayer, who would ultimately have to foot the bill, or at the expense of the other Services, who would in all probability have to take a cut in their military budgets to offset some of the price.


                Connaught Stranger.

                Comment


                • #9
                  From the Old Blog Cabin, Cork, Ireland:

                  Flags of Convenience ships are ones which fly a flag other than that of the country where the ships owners are based. A FOC country generally charges less for ships registration but also is inclined to operate lower standards in areas of regulation, safety, pay and conditions for seafarers and make it cheaper for the ships owners to run their fleet while of course it is the sailors and seafarers who suffer. FOC ships often have an undesirable safety and environmental record as less rigorous application of international standards is generally applied.

                  There was a time of course when Ireland had its own fleet through the Irish Shipping Company but then successive Irish governments have had a poor record on maritime issues.

                  It is regrettable that the the Irish government could not have chartered a ship from a non FOC country. It should be noted that as recently as January 17th 2008 the Irish transport Minister Noel Dempsey met with a representative of the International Transport Federation to discuss this very matter and the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Bertie Ahern decried the practice of using Flags of Convenience in the Irish parliament (Dáil Éireann) as recently as 5th March 2008.

                  It seems to be a case of saying one thing and doing another.

                  As noted on this blog, the Irish government hasn't been a friend of Irish merchant sailors. Even to the point of letting Irish Ferries reflag their ships to a FOC. Its basically a matter of outsourcing Irish jobs.
                  Last edited by Sea Toby; 26 March 2008, 12:30.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am confused and perplexed by your comment, toby.
                    Is Zeran a Flag of convenience vessel? If it is, is it contravening any employment laws? Has the vessel contravened The Paris MOU? Yes.(She has been inspected 7 times since 2004)Her last inspection was in february, in Antwerp.
                    ZERAN
                    Inspection details :
                    Date of first boarding : 07/02/2008
                    Date of final boarding : 07/02/2008
                    Port of inspection : Antwerp, Belgium.
                    Type of inspection : More detailed inspection
                    Nb of deficiency(ies) : 1
                    Ship's particulars at the time of inspection :
                    IMO number : 8302272
                    Name : ZERAN
                    Flag : Malta
                    Callsign : 9HHJ5
                    Ship type : Ro-ro cargo ship
                    Gross tonnage : 15685
                    Keel date : 1986
                    Classification society :
                    - Class certificate issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS), classification society responsable for issuance of class certificate as at date of first boarding
                    Statutory certificates :
                    - Cargo ship safety equipment is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - Cargo ship safety construction is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - Cargo ship safety radio is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - Load lines certificates is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - Oil pollution prevention (iopp) is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - Safety management certificat (SMC) is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS) last survey in Netherlands on 18/10/2007 by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    - International ship security certificate is issued by Germanischer Lloyd (GL) last survey in Germany on 15/02/2007 by Germanischer Lloyd (GL)
                    - Document of compliance (DoC) is issued by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS) last survey in Poland on 05/01/2007 by Polski Rejestr Statkow (PRS)
                    Ship manager
                    - POL-LEVANT SHIPPING, 24, ul. 10 Lutego, 81-364 Gdynia, Poland
                    Areas inspected :
                    - Accommodation and galley
                    - Car deck
                    - Engine and steering room
                    - Navigation bridge
                    - Outside decks and forecastle
                    Operational controls carried out
                    - 15 ppm OWS tested
                    Deficiencies :
                    - Structural safety, Ballast, fuel and other tanks
                    http://www.parismou.org/ParisMOU/Ins...5/default.aspx

                    If registered in Malta, the owners are obliged to pay the crew the rates appropriate for Malta. The days of FOC=Bad are long gone, thankfully. There are still owners who use ports of registry to avoid labour laws of course. Malta is a country considered FOC by the ITF, however so is Barbados, Bahamas and Panama. These countries are the Ports of registry for most of the Luxury Cruise Liners that visit our ports.
                    http://www.itfglobal.org/flags-convenience/sub-page.cfm



                    Ireland still has a substantial mercantile fleet.Indeed th eirish Government has a taxation system which is quite profitable for shipowners considering Flagging their fleet in Ireland. However it is uncommon for merchant vessels to be owned by governments except for in Communist countries. Irish Ferries are a private company, which the irish government ceased to have a share in many years ago. Who they employ, or where they chose to register their vessels is no longer the Business of the Irish Government. However the irish Government has a very good record in detaining vessels in breach of the Paris MOU.

                    So what is your issue exactly?

                    I'm wondering why the Dutch Amphibs are not carrying the Dutch equipment as well as ours out there?
                    Last edited by Goldie fish; 26 March 2008, 21:06.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Currently in our presidential primaries in America outsourcing is one of the issues in the campaign. Its interesting that your PM rails against FOCs in your parliament, and less than 3 weeks later does the same, hires a ship from a FOC country. It seems a bit like do as I say and not as I do.

                      Outsourcing, NAFTA, world trade agreements, and illegal aliens are bringing out the isolationists in America.

                      Of course, I don't follow Irish politics much. Many nations have cabotage laws. Does Ireland?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You mean like the Jones act? I think thats a uniquely american problem intended to protect the US mercantile marine. Over here, tenders are invited from suitibly qualified parties. Whoever best fulfils the conditions of the tender, gets the job.
                        You need to understand what exactly our "PM" actually "railed against" in relation to FOC. http://www.itfglobal.org/news-online...ewsdetail/1754
                        Indeed many ships flying the irish flag could be considered FOC, as they do so purely because it is financially beneficial for them to do so. Irish Banks are also benefiting greatly by providing finance to those wishing to purchase ships in the ever growing merchant marine field.


                        It is not the "PM" who selects the vessel. The Dept of Defence do. It is also the first time that a sealift of this scale has been undertaken by the Irish Defence forces.

                        This is not the USA.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Irish Ferries recently fired its Irish workers and hired foreigners. We are talking about Irish jobs.

                          Read this story from the same website:

                          Last year you may remember a big industrial dispute in Irish Ferries, which runs passenger / car ferries from Dublin and Rosslare to Britain and the European mainland. Irish Ferries likes to model itself on Ryanair and calls itself "the low fares ferry company". Irish Ferries wanted to sack all its 540 workers and replace them with foreign staff on half the pay and with worse conditions. It also wanted to re-register its ships in Cyprus, a Flag of Convenience country. There was a big row about it and the Irish trade unions threatened industrial action. The government opposed it too and a quarter of a million people took to the streets of Dublin, Cork and other cities in protest. But it didn't matter. The unions did a deal to get the best possible redundancy bargain for their members and some could keep their jobs, but all new staff would be non-union and low paid and the ships were re-registered, mostly in Cyprus.

                          In the end the workers were forced to accept the deal. The government did nothing except posturing and the unions accepted the deal.

                          The International Transprort Federations' campaign on Flag of Convenience ships deserves to be supported and this Blog is happy to support it. The ITF has more information on its website at http://www.itfglobal.org/flags-convenience/index.cfm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Again, as I said earlier, the Government were powerless to do anything about it. Irish Ferries is a private company.

                            Have you any ideas that you have not lifted from someone elses website? Please use quote tags.


                            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So the options ..pym would have the Naval Service buy a Bulk carrier with the intention of using it twice a year to move a battalion plus equipment to possible UN sanctioned missions to Land locked countries with no patrol commitments

                              and Sea Toby would have Bertie Ahern outlaw the use of Flags Of Convenience on the grounds that they were unjust to Irish workers.

                              That about sums it up......makes me wonder sometimes the actual commitment to reality some people have .
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X