NS Replacements

[thebig C]

Hey

Came accross this website. Apologies for only posting a link but I could not (despite my best efforts) post the pics

Anyway, the vessel below was built for the Indonesian police. At 36m it seems an ok size considering it could be used for training as well.

http://www.navship.pl/en/ns935.html

http://www.navship.pl/en/maintrzy.phtml?0 (scroll to the end for more info)



Following on from that, if we were to aquire CPC/IPV, what about this?

http://www.navship.pl/en/ns955.html


Ok, maybe its a little light at 400 odd tonnes, as being under weight was one criticism leveled at the French P400 class. However, if it was used appropriately in a coastal environment, it should be fine. Also, if both vessel types were ordered, there would be obvious parts/training commonality.

I know I am probably living in dream-world.....but were the NS is concerned...we can but dream

[Goldie fish]

Nice ships, but the method of patrolling would need to be changed dramatically. To cover the inshore waters effectively you'd need to base them in more locations than just Haulbowline. The 7 days endurance greatly limits them. I doubt the NS will replace the CPV when they reach retirement. It is much easier to do the duty wth a larger OPV, using its RIBs to work over the horizon. The trend is towards much smaller vessels, say 20m or thereabouts engaging in this type of duty. Fine if you can spare the resources, but in our case, it's an asset that will be unable to operate in 90% of our area of operations.
Its quite a large boat to only have a 7 Day endurance. I'd be interested to see where the 25 crew are squeezed into such a small space too(36m). Given the Customs cutter seen elsewhere on this thread is 22m and has a crew of 8...

[DeV]

The CPVs will be replaced but chances are by an OPV, however they do have 1 great advantage - their speed plus for smaller harbours its draft of only 2.7 metres (compared to the next lowest Roisin with 3.8 metres).

[thebig C]

The CPVs will be replaced but chances are by an OPV, however they do have 1 great advantage - their speed plus for smaller harbours its draft of only 2.7 meters (compared to the next lowest Roisin with 3.8 meters).

Well, exactly. All ships have advantages and disadvantages. That gets to the kernel of the issue of having a fleet composed of different types.

C

[thebig C]

Nice ships, but the method of patrolling would need to be changed dramatically. To cover the inshore waters effectively you'd need to base them in more locations than just Haulbowline. The 7 days endurance greatly limits them. I doubt the NS will replace the CPV when they reach retirement. It is much easier to do the duty wth a larger OPV, using its RIBs to work over the horizon. The trend is towards much smaller vessels, say 20m or thereabouts engaging in this type of duty. Fine if you can spare the resources, but in our case, it's an asset that will be unable to operate in 90% of our area of operations.
Its quite a large boat to only have a 7 Day endurance. I'd be interested to see where the 25 crew are squeezed into such a small space too(36m). Given the Customs cutter seen elsewhere on this thread is 22m and has a crew of 8...

Well, I did say we can but dream. Lets face it, despite attempts to portray the Dept/Govt of having a strategy for the NS, basically they simply spend the minimal possible ammount.

I was more thinking of this from the point of the mythical increase in fleet size in the next White Paper. Obviously, our OPVs are optimised for blue water patrols, leaving coastal patroling neglected. When they do littoral work they are really being draged into an area they were not built for. A good and cost effective way of increasing the flotilla would be ipv/cpc vessels which are alot cheaper then OPVs. The OPVs are then free from "distractions" and can work more effectively.

As for the issues about the vessels themselves, yes I did wonder at the crew size for the 36m vessel, considering the 55m model only has a crew of 28. The only thing I could think of is that the Shipyard are simply stating the no.s the Indonesian Police will base onboard. Afterall, with all those islands and some successionist movements, the Indonesian police are more like a Militia. Some "crew" could well be a strike team.

On the question of endurance, they were designed probably with the Baltic in mind. Shallow sea, relatively short enclosed coastlines (in the case of Poland, Germany, Lithuania etc). On that basis 3 days steaming along the coast and 3 days for return is reasonable. As you hinted at, if we had adecute resources and had separate stations in addition to the main base at Haulbowline, say one on the East coast and maybe one in the Northwest, 7 days would be more feasible.

The 20m vessels are becoming popular alright. Austal appear to have somewhat cornered that market. That have won a number of contracts in the Middle East and one recently with Malta for 5 22m boats. The only thing is, 20m is small if you do need to venture slightly further out to sea. Also, they tend to be operated by countries with separate Border Guard/ Interior Ministry fleets, given our funding we would have separate agencies.

Anywho, just throwing the vessels out there to see what people think. If I come accross anything else I'll post it

C

[easyrider]

The New Zealand Navy recently acquired a mix of Offshore and Inshore PVs, which seems to make sense. The IPVs have similar specs to the Australian Navy's Armidale class of coastal patrol vessels, both approx. 55 metres in length.



Another alternative would be Damen 47 metre design built for South Africa, and recently selected by the US Coast Guard. UK customs use smaller 41 metre cutters built by Damen, cost £4 million each to buy (back in 2001).

A fast CPV can operate out to 50 miles off the coast, because she can run for shelter if there's nasty weather coming. A different approach would be to base a coastal patrol vessel on a displacement hull design, like these French minesweepers:



Not as sexy as the fast CPVs, but probably better seaboats, since they're based on a trawler hull, and probably cheaper too. (Re-read D.A. Rayner's book 'Escort - the Battle of the Atlantic' recently. He describes escorting a westbound convoy off the north of Ireland in January 1944 during the worst weather of the war. It was so bad that all the destroyers in the escort force were forced to turn back, leaving just two Flower-class corvettes to carry on, as they were better able to cope with the mountainous seas.)

[DeV]

leaving just two Flower-class corvettes to carry on, as they were better able to cope with the mountainous seas.)

Based on a trawler and would "roll on wet grass"!

[thebig C]

Based on a trawler and would "roll on wet grass"!

Yeah, I have heard of that quote. I think Nicholas Monserratt describes a Flower Class in "The Cruel Sea".

You mention that they are based on a trawler, I had heard it was a Whaler? Maybe they are one and the same??

C

[thebig C]

The New Zealand Navy recently acquired a mix of Offshore and Inshore PVs, which seems to make sense. The IPVs have similar specs to the Australian Navy's Armidale class of coastal patrol vessels, both approx. 55 metres in length.



Another alternative would be Damen 47 metre design built for South Africa, and recently selected by the US Coast Guard. UK customs use smaller 41 metre cutters built by Damen, cost £4 million each to buy (back in 2001).

A fast CPV can operate out to 50 miles off the coast, because she can run for shelter if there's nasty weather coming. A different approach would be to base a coastal patrol vessel on a displacement hull design, like these French minesweepers:



Not as sexy as the fast CPVs, but probably better seaboats, since they're based on a trawler hull, and probably cheaper too. (Re-read D.A. Rayner's book 'Escort - the Battle of the Atlantic' recently. He describes escorting a westbound convoy off the north of Ireland in January 1944 during the worst weather of the war. It was so bad that all the destroyers in the escort force were forced to turn back, leaving just two Flower-class corvettes to carry on, as they were better able to cope with the mountainous seas.)

The NZ IPV and the Armidales look really slick. I could be wrong but I think the NZ vessels were approx NZ$15 million or thereabouts, which wouldn't be bad.

What class are the French minesweepers? Are they costal vessels in contrast to the Tripartite Class which do deep sea work?

C

[hptmurphy]

Yeah, I have heard of that quote. I think Nicholas Monserratt describes a Flower Class in "The Cruel Sea".

You mention that they are based on a trawler, I had heard it was a Whaler? Maybe they are one and the same

Whaler would be the corect choice of words.

[easyrider]

.......
What class are the French minesweepers? Are they costal vessels in contrast to the Tripartite Class which do deep sea work?

C

There's a class of three minesweepers - Altair, Aldebaran and Antares. Their main job is keeping the underwater entrance to Brest clear for nuclear submarines, but they also do a range of other tasks. There is also a pair of training boats - Glycine and Eglantine - which shares the same basic French trawler design. I think they've all visited Ireland in recent years.

You can see pics and details of these and all French naval vessels at http://www.netmarine.net/bat/listes/alphabet.htm.

[ZULU]

IS that a towed side scan sonar off Aldebaran??

[Goldie fish]

Well, I did say we can but dream. Lets face it, despite attempts to portray the Dept/Govt of having a strategy for the NS, basically they simply spend the minimal possible ammount.

I was more thinking of this from the point of the mythical increase in fleet size in the next White Paper. Obviously, our OPVs are optimised for blue water patrols, leaving coastal patroling neglected. When they do littoral work they are really being draged into an area they were not built for. A good and cost effective way of increasing the flotilla would be ipv/cpc vessels which are alot cheaper then OPVs. The OPVs are then free from "distractions" and can work more effectively.

As for the issues about the vessels themselves, yes I did wonder at the crew size for the 36m vessel, considering the 55m model only has a crew of 28. The only thing I could think of is that the Shipyard are simply stating the no.s the Indonesian Police will base onboard. Afterall, with all those islands and some successionist movements, the Indonesian police are more like a Militia. Some "crew" could well be a strike team.

On the question of endurance, they were designed probably with the Baltic in mind. Shallow sea, relatively short enclosed coastlines (in the case of Poland, Germany, Lithuania etc). On that basis 3 days steaming along the coast and 3 days for return is reasonable. As you hinted at, if we had adecute resources and had separate stations in addition to the main base at Haulbowline, say one on the East coast and maybe one in the Northwest, 7 days would be more feasible.

The 20m vessels are becoming popular alright. Austal appear to have somewhat cornered that market. That have won a number of contracts in the Middle East and one recently with Malta for 5 22m boats. The only thing is, 20m is small if you do need to venture slightly further out to sea. Also, they tend to be operated by countries with separate Border Guard/ Interior Ministry fleets, given our funding we would have separate agencies.

Anywho, just throwing the vessels out there to see what people think. If I come accross anything else I'll post it

C

You are starting to drag the thread way off topic with your wishlisting there. Why the obsession with having more ships regardless of size? Would it not be better to have all ships better suited to where they are most needed, rather than having a few that can only work inshore(where a naval presence is least required) . The waters of the middle east are nothing like the coastal waters of the west coast.

Then you suggest creating further bases, merely to accomodate these vessels you suggest we should get, for a requirement we don't have.

Forgive my bluntness but you are beginning to reach into fantasy land now.

The topic, originally was about providing a proper naval craft for the NSR purposes, which could be called upon on occasion for use by the Naval service, when engaged in port control roles(something currently normally carried out with a sea rider).

[thebig C]

You are starting to drag the thread way off topic with your wishlisting there. Why the obsession with having more ships regardless of size? Would it not be better to have all ships better suited to where they are most needed, rather than having a few that can only work inshore(where a naval presence is least required) . The waters of the middle east are nothing like the coastal waters of the west coast.

Then you suggest creating further bases, merely to accomodate these vessels you suggest we should get, for a requirement we don't have.

Forgive my bluntness but you are beginning to reach into fantasy land now.

The topic, originally was about providing a proper naval craft for the NSR purposes, which could be called upon on occasion for use by the Naval service, when engaged in port control roles(something currently normally carried out with a sea rider).

Originally I did post examples of vessels which I thought might suit the NSR role. I then answered other posters based on points they had raised (which you might be surprised to hear, happens from time to time on discussion boards).

Also, I didn't advocate building more bases, I was clearly surmising that if funding wasn't an issue, that might have been a route to take.

On the issue of the number of vessels....we currently have 8 ships! ANY increase in that number would improve the capability. Given that we are not awash with money, I was looking at cost effective alternatives. And speaking of cost effectiveness, I thought one of the cojent points of this thread was that the NSR could partly crew these vessels, helping to reduce costs.

I guess I am just not one of those people who thinks "sure everythings grand"

C

[thebig C]

There's a class of three minesweepers - Altair, Aldebaran and Antares. Their main job is keeping the underwater entrance to Brest clear for nuclear submarines, but they also do a range of other tasks. There is also a pair of training boats - Glycine and Eglantine - which shares the same basic French trawler design. I think they've all visited Ireland in recent years.

You can see pics and details of these and all French naval vessels at http://www.netmarine.net/bat/listes/alphabet.htm.

Thanks mate. That website is great!