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  • #31
    SAR you mean?

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    • #32
      Well next time you go to sea you can go on auto.
      time to throw a break or two..

      First ship I took the helm on didn't have auto,

      Secondly the next ship I served on had the first Auto

      and thirdly all well before you were even born.

      I'd love to know where I likened a PV to a cruise ship!?
      Only Cruise ships have beds. The rest have bunks.


      Of course it made a difference to the watches, it meant the Cox'n (I presume that is who details people for jobs) didn't have to find others to fill that role.
      Nope Cox'n assigns you your various stations, Bos'n allocates the work to the executive branch.
      Which is not to say that only members of that branch can qualify . I knew mechs and stewards with steering tickest

      Nope . When under instruction for steering ticket you are an extra on the watch and the watch remains the same. used to be four on a watch.

      L/ hand of the watch... Leading seaman ..Leading Sigs used to do steaming watches

      Helms man

      Stand by man

      and Look out.

      During day time only three unless lookouts were required during the day.

      Watches were four hours with a hourly rotation.

      Standby man made the grub at night.At one stage on the Eithne the grub situation on certain watches got out of hand, the sausage sandwiches turned into feasts of chips sausages eggs, beans but was called a halt to when the farting got too serious and in severe weather one or two officers couldn't keep the grub down nor could they make it the side and the stewards got fed up cleaning up vomit

      Certain Watch officers would even allow you smoke on the bridge.There were even some we were on a first name basis. For about the first 3 months on Eithne I stood my watches with Damo the muff diver.

      The auto pilot was a laugh. Each switch had it own light cover which was removable so we used to change to covers around and mute the rudder correction alarm and then hand over as helm on auto while it would be on manual....guys going twenty degrees of course while trying to figure out why. The the bridge lights would go on to see the covers on the wrong lights and the alarms muted.

      My self and Marloy on watch one night..I was on the helm and he was look out conversation went like this.


      'Look out to bridge'

      Bridge...'Bridge'?


      Look out..' Smoke coming from the port funnel sir !

      Bridge....Theres supposed to be smoke coming from it...

      Look out....not from the bottom of it sir...

      Next call from the engine room...Fire Fire Fire in the port funnel

      me and Marloy broke our arses after that one,

      So we went to firefighting stations and Damo gets up next morning..' What was all that ****ing racket last night'?

      'Ship was on fire...'

      'Again.. ffs no respect for the sleeping around here'

      Subsequently she caught fire twice more on that patrol.

      Just an average night on Eithne.

      Back to the thread,

      Sorry if I was a bit hard on you Dev but some of your statements are completely off the wall.

      Recruits fire the GPMG and SG 3 which is OG rate train in all the other weapons as operators, SGz is for leading hands and SG 1 is for POs.

      SG2 qualifies Leading gunners to instruct and SG1 is qualified to be head instructor on gunnery courses.

      Eithne at the time had the only PO gunner aboard as the senior Gunner on a PV was the leading gunner.

      Gunnery officers which all subbies will act as will only ever qualify operationally as SG3s although may do more theory related stuff later but their basic qualification is that of an O/Sea Gunner,

      If not a gunner in Executive branch the option is RP or radar plotter who basically does all the updates on charts and works with the Nav officer.

      Given the small numbers of enlisted rates on Naval vessels there is no redundancy. The guys on watches hold action stations, boats crew, damage control stations and firefighting stations you also take part in coming along side or anchoring ..multitasking in the least without the routine clean ship and ships husbandry.


      I stood my watches, was searider crew, my first gunnery appointment was 57mm wallop operator , progressed to Port Rhino and handler as part of fight deck crew. MY harbour station was the steering

      In between I did boardings,cleaned ship rested off and slept.We had eleven seamen on board at the time.

      Digh ship no joke and the doing 24hr duties when you came along side depending where and who could be one in 4 or one in three.


      Not as straight forwar as it seems.

      Now fit NSR guys into this.

      Take a 6 week course ..its 9 to 5 with after hours work required. projects etc.

      so 6 weeks equates in 42 mandays. The most you are going to get is two weekends per month. The minimum is four months to get one course done.

      on top of all the rest of the course which we agreed would take at least a two week camp or a further 7 weekends minimum, average another three months on top of the 4 already done and you still need a basic seamanship cousre another 3 to four months before some one has the same base entry level to go forward as a part of acrew who has the knowledge behind him after 10 months, take leave and breaks into accot..its a year....

      can some one give up a year to reach an OSea rate as you then have to do six months continous sea service before qualifying to sit the EDH to become an AB'Sea and some where along the line you have to do your steering tickest and stay current on all your weapons to remain on par with your NS equivalent

      and Thats only in the exec ops branch

      NCOs and Officers are so far behind the reailty is they have no place at sea.

      Given what it takes to get junior rates on a par and then not being able t use them when you need them, basically the have the say when they are avaiable...whats the point?

      Future for the NSR.....as a reserve to NS no!
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #33
        How do all the other Naval reserve's do it so?

        NZDF
        US Navy Reserve
        France
        Australia
        Canada
        Netherlands?

        There must be some formula that is working if the others can do it
        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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        • #34
          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          Recruits fire the GPMG and SG 3 which is OG rate train in all the other weapons as operators, SGz is for leading hands and SG 1 is for POs.
          So all NS personnel can act as GPMG gunners?



          I'm not sure what training a NSR recruit does, but to get to A/S they are trained (and assessed by NS NCOs/officers) on the following.... mainly during on the job training on patrol:

          QM A/S
          SSFP (thats something to do with fire)
          Helmsman
          Piping
          Cable Party
          Securing a Quay Wall
          Towing
          Stopper
          Small craft handling (BP18)
          Hoisting/Lowering Ships Boats
          Bouy knowledge & liberty boat handling
          Rigging, blocks, tackle
          Rope work, splices
          Ship's ladders
          Painting
          Bosun's mate (storeman)
          Maintenaince of bathroom fittings
          Care of sanitary systems, scuppers, drains
          Care of watertight closures
          Flags
          Voice procedure & VHF/UHF radio operation
          Use of landline

          Bearing in mind I have no idea about most of the above things.... they have to do fire fighting & damage control course prior to going to sea (and then refreshers). So that is some of the jobs they can do.

          Train them all on GPMG, RIBs and boardings (that is all do-able).


          According to military.ie the following are the specialities:
          seaman gunner, seaman radar plotter, mechanician, communications operator and catering or supply.

          Mechanics and cooks are out as the training a much longer.

          Maybe the NS would be willing to also NSR gunners to specialise in GPMG. HMG and possibly Oerlikons? That would free up NS SG/3s for the main armament.

          Would comms op & supply be options?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DeV View Post

            Mechanics and cooks are out as the training a much longer.
            Depends if civilian qualifications are taken into account. Welders/electricians/machinists chefs/cooks etc.

            Any welder qualified on coded or experience in the pharma-chem industry would be more than helpful in the marine environment.

            Same goes for machinists/electricans/electronics techs.

            But this usually is stonewalled with the "it hasn't been done the by DF personnel so we're not accepting it" excuse
            "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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            • #36
              The solution is simple. The NSR consists exclusively of people who already have civilian marine qualifications. Those who work in the offshore exploration industry for example, would have no problem slotting into a vacancy aboard ship, once they had completed military training, and familiarisation on procedures.
              The NS have been recruiting Direct entry Technicians and officers for years. Why not do likewise with a reserve.
              The normal civilian maritime work routine allows those who wish to participate fully in Naval Activity to do so. Most either work month on/month off or 3 on three off(or similar).
              The limitation is of course mandays.


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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              • #37
                QM A/S......haven't met one who could......ever seen a QMs log...you need to know the bridge of a ships to fill one out.

                SSFP (thats something to do with fire).....If they get acahnce to do the course.again specific to NMCI

                Helmsman... can't really do it in class room..again NMCI or bridge of ship
                Piping....LOLL.......very specialist

                Cable Party....again you need a ship.. and experienced persons.

                Securing a Quay Wall.....a BP 18 maybe

                Towing again maybe a BP 18 anything else is just theory unless you practise swinging an axe
                Stopper????
                Small craft handling (BP18)...Sailing boats

                Hoisting/Lowering Ships Boats..we have cranes for that....

                Bouy knowledge & liberty boat handling...don't use liberty boats anymore

                Rigging, blocks, tackle... No rigging on ships

                Rope work, splices....once in afour years dids I splice and that was on a course

                Ship's ladders...Painting a greasing cables on accomadation ladder..once in ablue moon

                Painting All seamen do it any way..where are you going to paint in the NSR...oh look theres a wall lets paint it grey...like ****!

                Bosun's mate (storeman).......the guy who runs the paint locker is normally the senior A/Sea..Bos'ns mate is a leading hands job

                Maintenaince of bathroom fittings... Cleaning. Cleaning parties detailed at each patrol

                Care of sanitary systems, scuppers, drains.. Chippies work

                Care of watertight closures.. Chippys work

                Flags.. what flags....?? Comms op job

                Voice procedure & VHF/UHF radio operation....pick it up as you go along job...
                Use of landline telephone...wtf.

                Maybe the NS would be willing to also NSR gunners to specialise in GPMG. HMG and possibly Oerlikons
                1. We don't use Oerlikons
                2. Where do you get hold of the firesim outside of haulbowline and qualfied people to train them
                3.Why bother when you have enough people on board who are already qualified.

                This I love..

                That would free up NS SG/3s for the main armament
                OTO melaras are full automated

                57mm Bofors on Eithne..PO gunners witha bout 10 years experience

                40mm well given Naval gunner will killeach other to get a weapons based action station can't see a NSR guy being allowed to look at the Bofors.

                Gunnery is not something you gaet to have a crack at that easily. Ther have been gunners who never fired the weapons after initially training as the landed on the wrong ship.

                According to military.ie the following are the specialities:
                seaman gunner, seaman radar plotter, mechanician, communications operator and catering or supply
                Correct and every one of those has their own respective training carried out prior to going to sea.So each wouold have to be trained. here the problem. You only need one dusty per ship....three comms ops three cooks one medic and a cuople of mechs.

                Given recruit class from the NS train directly after passing out in their assigned disciplines where do you intend fitting in NSR people.

                You won;t find any junior rates in the NSR for any of the post above..no medics dusties or cooks. So the options ae down to mechs or seaman of comms ops...all of which require specialist traing , which you can give to NSR people because of the time and location.

                The NSR consists exclusively of people who already have civilian marine qualifications. Those who work in the offshore exploration industry for example, would have no problem slotting into a vacancy aboard ship, once they had completed military training, and familiarisation on procedures.
                The NS have been recruiting Direct entry Technicians and officers for years. Why not do likewise with a reserve
                .

                What rank do you enlsit them at..and how do you use them at sea?

                "hello I'm CPO Smith and I'm on two week camp from the NSR but I drive boats for a living and I'm running the show and I'm the boss"

                Thud....splash!


                Ever tried to walk in on a PDF exercise as a bag and throw your weight around.......



                Welders/electricians/machinists
                Yep direct entry at NS level but no facility for NSR direct entries ...next question..why would you want to do this for a living and then do it as a hobby....for half the money.


                Future of the NSR doesn't feature as direct replacement for ships crews. Training takes too long. turn over of people is to high so investment is slow forthcoming.

                Duaration of patrols makes it harder the reservist to manage full time employment with reservist commitment

                The last thing you need is a guy needing to get of a ship when the ship is going the other direction and he loses his job because of it.

                Protection of employment legislation again being the weak link.
                Last edited by hptmurphy; 12 July 2010, 12:46.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                • #38
                  So the weak links are clearly Mandays and protection of employment. Without major changes to either then the reserve, whether army or naval, is doomed to fail.

                  What rank do you enlsit them at..and how do you use them at sea?
                  The method of recruitment must change. Create a vacancy that requires a specific maritime skill.
                  I.e 2nd officer/ engineering officer. The majority of vessels work to set procedures already and in the civilian world it would not be unusual for an officer to spend a few months working on one ship, and then following his rest period be posted to a different ship. A qualified officer would merely be giving the state the benefit of his expertise.
                  There are many in the RDF at present, (some who are IMO members) whose expertise in certain areas in their civilian occupation have been accepted by the DF, and in some cases, adapted by them. If you have the skill, there is no excuse not to throw your weight around.
                  Consider also that NS officers now do the exact same watchkeeping qualification as their civilian equivalent. Indeed, NS cadets have done on the job training aboard merchant vessels.

                  I believe if people with marine qualifications(and I don't mean leisure sailors) know that the expertise they bring will be accepted and appreciated, they will make themselves available to do their profession as a hobby.
                  At the moment, throughout the RDF, that is not the case.
                  That needs to change dramatically. It is a cultural thing mostly. Johnny the maths teacher by day is a unit commander by night, and he isn't going to have some upstart putting him in his place, just because the upstart is more qualified for the job he got(by seniority) than he is.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    hptmurphy that list is what an NSR O/S do to get upgraded to A/S currently!

                    It is from the logbook that must be completed in order to qualify for upgrading.

                    I presume the theory is covered in normal training, the practical is assessed at sea on a PV (over 2/3 patrols) by the NS crew. All the skills are assessed on an NS vessel (eg quay wall).

                    The only ones that aren't are:

                    Small boat handling (which is BP 18) assessed by NSR
                    MTL handling assessed by NSR
                    Buoyage knowledge assessed by NSR


                    The log book was developed by the Naval School and as this skills are used & assessed during a patrol, that all NS vessels have for example a means of hoisting & lowering boats.

                    I meant Rheinmetall sorry not Oerlikon.

                    One of the questions I orginally asked was should the NSR be centralised in Haulbowline.

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                    • #40
                      NSR O/S do to get upgraded to A/S currently!
                      there within lies the problem.

                      Two different types of training to achieve the same grade and never crosses over with reality of what the Job is in The NS.

                      there fore based on that how can there be equity between what are basically tow different services.

                      I presume the theory is covered in normal training, the practical is assessed at sea on a PV (over 2/3 patrols) by the NS crew. All the skills are assessed on an NS vessel (eg quay wall)
                      How can they be effectively assesed by the NS when they don't do most of them.

                      This training is NSR dare I say it ASM specific...


                      One of the questions I orginally asked was should the NSR be centralised in Haulbowline.
                      Simple answer if you want an effective reserve yes.But you have to get them away from thew ASM mentality and bring them into line with how things work on ships with career service men.

                      Johnny the maths teacher by day is a unit commander by night, and he isn't going to have some upstart putting him in his place, just because the upstart is more qualified for the job he got(by seniority) than he is.
                      This being a primary example. I would take a bet there are officers and NCOs within the NSR who don't even have a steering ticket !

                      But then again I know guys who were in the Slua Muiri who could out sail most, who had real sea going experience from the RN...even a Falklands vet in my unit at one point.

                      NSR suffers from greater problems that the RDF given there is only one base and 8 ships...everybody can't train all of the time and no tow training standards are the same. The geography of the centres don't solve the problem. Far too many NCOs and officers with very little practical experience to draw on.

                      Consider also that NS officers now do the exact same watchkeeping qualification as their civilian equivalent
                      Its not the NS officers are the problem...its the NSR officers..what division do they fall into.Given ops / exec hold seniority..most of the NSR by default are not qualified in the branch and can't lead from experience as they don't have it and are yachtsmen or administrators...oooppps!

                      Seriously At the lower ranks they probably want a crack at the job but will never get anything but the briefest insight in to the world behind the grey steel walls,

                      Its not going to change. The NS is begin ing to look at the NSR in the same capacity as the Army does the RDF...drain on resources and if some one could wind up the whole thing gracefully they would be well pleased....it isn't and can't be VFM without considerable input.It got a good lead in but the died.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #41
                        You got lost along the way murph. My plan would be to appoint officers to the NSR only if they had civilian maritime qualifications such as Second officer or Marine engineers.

                        Same as how Medical Corps officers are supposed to have medical qualifications.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          NSR, future of..........

                          To be honest, if the NSR has a future they would really need to pull up their socks. It is seldom I have bad words to say about the commitment of any volunteer reservists but in this instance I'll just have to.

                          I have never actually taken them seriously, mostly due to the fact that they are very badly organised and mope about in a slovenly manner constantly. They have a low motivation and seem uninterested.

                          It's the little things that matter and a few short well placed improvements would definatly go a long way.

                          Am I being too harsh ?
                          As always, too many christians and never enough lions.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by armedboarder View Post
                            It's the little things that matter and a few short well placed improvements would definatly go a long way.
                            Such as?

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                            • #44
                              Am I being too harsh ?
                              Realistic would be the right word from one with a current and educated opinion.

                              My plan would be to appoint officers to the NSR only if they had civilian maritime qualifications such as Second officer or Marine engineers.
                              Elitism.If they were interested in going to sea with the NS they would have joined up as opposed to becoming reservists. These roles can be filled by first line reserve officers any way so is there really a need to create another tier?
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • #45
                                Does this mean FLR Officers would have to train on say something like a weekend a month type schedule to stay current in skills?
                                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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