Future of the NSR

[hptmurphy]

O

bviously they can't do some of the skills - eg engineering, maybe weapons (due to the length of the courses). But not all seaman are specialised.

Oh yes they are!

Shore security duties
COMCEN (depending on qualifications required, ie does it have to be an CommOp)
Fisheries Monitoring Centre duties (depending on qualifications required)
Logs assistance (stores, driving etc)
Ships husbandry etc (including during refits & dry dock (helps the manday problem))
Limited gunnery - GPMG & HMG (do-able within the constraints)
Boarding & RIB work

To have NSR guys do these they have to qualify....primarily as ships crew..no room for passengers which your description of intended roles for the NSR become.

Ship is not a 9 to 5 monday to friday thing..its your life for two years.Until you can master that concept you fail.Twenty years on you still have memories of the guys you lived with.

Its not guys joing for a couple of weeks and moving on.Its a full cycle of people who live to support the ship and each other... you can't do it partime with full time crew.

NS POs (and above) have the power - not sure if that extends to the NSR

Given that a NS PO is a professional and has undergone set training in depth to get to this role there is no parity with an NSR PO .NSR PO simply doesn't have the back round or training to operate within a department aboard ship let alone within the complexities of secondary roles.

[DeV]

NS POs (and above) have the power - not sure if that extends to the NSR.

The power is given under the Criminal Justice Act 1994... "a member of the Naval Service of the Defence Forces not below the rank of petty officer" may stop, board, search, divert and detain a ship.

Looking at the Defence Act, the "defence forces .... comprising ... naval ... components" (it says the same for the PDF and the RDF).

So potentially an NSR PO (or above) has the same powers.

[DeV]

I suppose some of the areas the NSR could support the NS could be:

Shore security duties
COMCEN (depending on qualifications required, ie does it have to be an CommOp)
Fisheries Monitoring Centre duties (depending on qualifications required)
Logs assistance (stores, driving etc)
Ships husbandry etc (including during refits & dry dock (helps the manday problem))
Limited gunnery - GPMG & HMG (do-able within the constraints)
Boarding & RIB work
Maritime Security (RIB harbour patrols, foreign vessel security)
Military Police
Sick Berth Attendants (depending on qualifications required)

[Morris]

hense the word 'now'. Started in May.

[Morris]

hense the word 'now'.

[ZULU]

Cork NSR Unit is based in Haulbowline now.

How come I regularly see them in Collins Barracks so?

[Goldie fish]

That does make sense. Where they were was a silly place.

[Slug1]

The Cork NSR Coy is based in Collins Barracks, in the City. Oddly enough, the Air Defence battery is based in Haulbowline.

Cork NSR Unit is based in Haulbowline now.

[DeV]

The Cork NSR Coy is based in Collins Barracks, in the City. Oddly enough, the Air Defence battery is based in Haulbowline.

Army logic!

Some in opposition in government are keen that the NSR take a greater role in drug enforcement and detection, however while this is a gallant and worthwhile ambition it is restricted by Legislation. Members of the NSR have no power to stop and search anyone, for anything. Even the Garda reserve didn't get that power. And in any event, the Customs people already have their Cutters, and the training and legislation to do this job. If an increase is required, they would probably see it before the NSR would.

NS POs (and above) have the power - not sure if that extends to the NSR.

So it brings us back to a First line reserve, if we want people to slot in to cover crew vacancies aboard ship, or leave it as it is if we only want the NSR to cover duties and oddjobs in the base during the summer holidays.

Integrating the FLR into the NSR could give a lot more experience, training and capability to the NSR.

[Goldie fish]

The Cork NSR Coy is based in Collins Barracks, in the City. Oddly enough, the Air Defence battery is based in Haulbowline.

The question is, what are the NSR for? The Slua Muiri was very much a redundant force, who as murph mentioned, got to visit the Naval base occasionally, and if they were lucky, got to row to one of the NS ships, where they would be taken for a quick spin round Tuskar, and back home in time to meet your dinner. Weekends were spent sailing dinghys around harbours.

These days however, the Junior rates, and some senior rates of the NSR are being used to fill vacancies aboard ship, however the limitation there is of course mandays. Patrol lasts 3 weeks(notional, not opsec) but A/sea Bloggs NSR only has the use of 2 weeks worth of mandays. Officers and Senior rates over PO will rarely, if ever be given an oppertunity to do a job aboard ship appropriate to their rank. Some officers have, at their own expense went on to recieve the basic level of yachtsmaster qualification, so they at least have the experience of coastal navigation, but they do not have the expertise required to do any more than act as Orderly officer on Haulbowline.
The NS were glad to have the extra bodies from the NSR available to do duties or cover for crew shortages, but with the current reduction in Patrol days, and the reduction of people leaving the NS early, this will not be as much of an issue as it was during the Celtic tiger days.
They seem to have moved away from the sailing club mentality too, with more time being spent in Sea riders than sailboats. Sailing may provide an excellent training opportunity, but it should not end there.

So What do you do with them to maintain a relevant, effective Reserve? SHould a reserve, by nature, be just that, people able to slot in and carry out any task aboard ship as required?
Without watchkeeping qualified officers and Gunnery qualified seamen this isn't possible.
Is it better then to have a flotilla specifically for the NSR to do the roles of the past? As mentioned elsewhere, the NS frequently are required to have security launches guarding visiting naval vessels or at events such as the Zulus round the world sailing pissup race when it stopped in Galway. But could you justify having a fleet of small purpose built craft for NSR use(see other thread) sitting Idle for the majority of the year while the NSR people are off doing their normal jobs? You could say that the NS could use these craft the rest of the time, but the position has been made in the dail that the NS has no use for small craft at present, and larger OPVs are their operational priority.

Some in opposition in government are keen that the NSR take a greater role in drug enforcement and detection, however while this is a gallant and worthwhile ambition it is restricted by Legislation. Members of the NSR have no power to stop and search anyone, for anything. Even the Garda reserve didn't get that power. And in any event, the Customs people already have their Cutters, and the training and legislation to do this job. If an increase is required, they would probably see it before the NSR would.

So it brings us back to a First line reserve, if we want people to slot in to cover crew vacancies aboard ship, or leave it as it is if we only want the NSR to cover duties and oddjobs in the base during the summer holidays.

[DeV]

Ah Zulu but they are the civilian courses not the NS ones.....

The NS fire fighting courses are the same - 3/5 days.

The NS PSSR course is 2 days not 1.

The NS First Aid course is 3 days not 1.

The NS Sea Survival course is 2 days not 1.

But as you said all could be done over weekends. The above are complusory for all NS personnel (I presume the sea going ones) and by extension NSR personnel who go to sea.

http://www.nmci.ie/?page=mandatortraining

[ZULU]

As Murph said - Qualified personnel needed. Below is a list of courses supplied by NMCI.

As you can see most doable in weekend training timetables.

GMDSS Short Range Certificate (SRC) (GMDSS) Short Range Certificate.

Personal Survival Techniques (PST) STCW-95 (1 day)
This is a 1-day course containing practical and theory sections including launching and entering a life raft in a designated pool.

Personal Safety & Social Responsibility (PSSR) STCW-95
This 1-day course forms part of the mandatory basic safety training for all seafarers assigned safety or pollution prevention duties.

Efficient Deck Hand (EDH)
5-day course. EDH is the qualifying examination for AB and deck rating certification.

Fire fighting & Fire Prevention (3 day) STCW-95
3-day course during which students are exposed to live fire scenarios in the Fire Training Unit (FTU) where they apply their training and use fire fighting equipment to control the fire.

Advanced Fire fighting (5 day) STCW-95
5-day course during which students are exposed to live fire scenarios in the Fire Training Unit (FTU) where they apply their training and use fire fighting equipment to control the fire. A practical damage control element is also included.

Elementary First Aid (EFA) STCW-95
This is a 1-day classroom based course and forms part of the mandatory basic training for all personnel assigned designated emergency duties.

Medical First Aid Course - STCW'95

Proficiency in Survival Craft (CPSC) STCW-95
This 5-day course will prepare candidates involved in taking charge of the launching or handling of survival craft to achieve an appropriate level of competence and confidence in these operations.

Simulation
ECDIS Operator Electronic Chart Display

Crew Resource Management

Bridge Resource Management
This 4-day course focuses on the theory and principles of resource management. It is designed primarily for senior officers aboard ship.

Bridge Team Management
This 5-day course is designed for qualified bridge watchkeeping officers and senior students with at least 6 months sea-time who wish to obtain an STCW 95 Officer of the Watch certificate of competency.

Bridge Simulation

Engine Room Simulation

Ship to Ship (STS) Transfer Simulator - Delivered by GAC Training and Service Solutions (GTSS)
In supplying this course, GAC Training & Service Solutions is responding to market demands for an accessible, interactive and exciting 5 day short course to provide invaluable experience in Ship-to-Ship (STS) related ship handling.

Rummage - Delivered by GAC Training and Service Solutions (GTSS)

Deep Rummage for Customs - Delivered by GAC Training and Service Solutions (GTSS)

Preparing for a Successful SIRE Inspection - Delivered by GAC Training and Service Solutions (GTSS)
This is a 2-day course for seagoing staff who are involved with SIRE inspections and shore personnel dealing with SIRE inspection reports.

[ZULU]

Speaking to a number of currently serving NS friends of mine, their feedback on many of the NSR isn't great. They admit there is the odd diamond but very much in the minority

[DeV]

Firstly you have to look at why the ASM was raised and Historically it had nothing to do with the NS and was designed as portal control and inspection service in the Ports listed.

If this role has been written off why then is there a requirment to have NSR units based away from the only naval base that can provide the facilities to train them to be a feasible NSR.

But did they ever have the equipment (and weapons) to do it?

If you want an effective NSR they must be trained in line with the NS. They must have the skills to got to sea.

They must have the same skills set as those they go to sea with.

I taught they were in basic seaman's role. Obviously they can't do some of the skills - eg engineering, maybe weapons (due to the length of the courses). But not all seaman are specialised.

There is only one holding such a qualification reflecting that of a unit commader in the NSR, simply because he held that appointment when a Naval Officer.

Maybe the FLR NS should be combined with the NSR.

Re activate the role, or disband the NSR as it is, make them a coast guard reserve in some places and those closer to the main centre in Haulbowline be trained as effective Naval Reservists in the full sense of the term.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, I was under the impression that there was times that NS vessels couldn't put to sea without NSR personnel to fill some of the mundane seamen roles.

[hptmurphy]

Firstly you have to look at why the ASM was raised and Historically it had nothing to do with the NS and was designed as portal control and inspection service in the Ports listed.

If this role has been written off why then is there a requirment to have NSR units based away from the only naval base that can provide the facilities to train them to be a feasible MSR.

In the case of Waterford they train in a un manned pots so to this end they can't train with small arms without having to travel to Kilkenny.

So what do the NSR units actually train at that equates with actual naval training while at theses out post.

From my time there many years ago..we marched and tied knots.We learned naval terms and marched some more.

We went on camp rigged a transfer jack stay across the piers in Camden,sailed around the harbour and visited haulbowline once.

Did this make me a naval reservist...no...and in fact I was hated for wearing the same uniform for those who were Navy going to sea and living in ships.

So what to do with a Naval reserve that has a small core who do qualify and can go to sea,but who are very limited in what they can train at beyond the very basics in their own locality?

The question has to be asked can they or do they want to continue doing what they've done for years and is it of benefit?

No longer having touch with the NSR unless things have changed significantly I can't offer an opinion based on now but given the technological advancements in what is required for the job of serving at sea local centres can hardly provide the course to qualify people.

From that it could be assumed the only location practical that could train at the specialised facilities of Haulbowline and the NMCI with the frequencey and intensity required to get skills levels to a practical unit would be the Cork unit.

I'm afaraid the only other solution would be to disband the other centres offering positions for those people to join a Cork based unit.

If you want an effective NSR they must be trained in line with the NS. They must have the skills to got to sea.

They must have the same skills set as those they go to sea with.

Their ranks must reflect the qualifications of those holding the posts in the NS.

There is only one holding such a qualification reflecting that of a unit commader in the NSR, simply because he held that appointment when a Naval Officer.

Otherwise the role of the NSR must reflect a real need in the locations they are based.Coastal patrols drugs , smuggling are in the Customs remit and the NS provide support, the Coast guard cover the rest again assisted by the NS....so wheres the acancy for the NSR in thse peace time roles.?

In time of convetional war their traditional role was useful and realistic one.

But many units have never trained in this role since the last war so basically its gone.

Re activate the role, or disband the NSR as it is, make them a coast guard reserve in some places and those closer to the main centre in Haulbowline be trained as effective Naval Reservists in the full sense of the term.