EPV for naval service

[Farel']

In the past we have discussed(sort of) the type of ship we do not need(aircraft carriers) instead of the type we do. Given the current mission that is being undertaken by L.E. Niamh, I think it is time for a rethink on the policy of an 8 ship Naval Service as outlined by the white paper.

At the time, the world was going through a period of relative peace,with no apparent risk to the world. Sept 11 has changed all that,and though we may not be directly affected by it,the states that usually carried the can of logistic support,the US and UK are now under pressure with commitments worldwide in the so called "war against terror".

In the past when ireland went on resupply missions, it could do so safe in the knowledge that it would neither be a target for attack,and would be protected en route by other navies. It is time to realise that we no longer have that advantage. At sea we are at the moment(unless there is a change of foreign policy) on our own.

Therefor what is needed is a re evaluation of our vessels self defence capability,though to be fair, what our vessels have always been armed with have recently been added to the deck armament of major US and RN warships,such as the HMG and GPMG. The current RIBs on all but the newer vessels should be replaced with larger types,more suitable for operating great distances from the "mother ship" i.e. beyond the horizon,as the P50s boats are.

Secondly, the need for a vessel capable of carrying stores,equipment,vehicles and troops to overseas missions,and providing a C3 capability on arrival is now obvious. We can no longer assume that on arrival the mission will be set up,secure and awaiting our arrival. A "tactical advance to base camp" must be assumed in all future missions,and as few of these will be within walking distance of our fair isle,and airborne C3 is still a pipe dream for all but the Larger states and NATO a vessel cabable of this role is required.
The vessel above would be what I would have in mind,or even the soon to be retired RFA "sirs" which proved their worth during the Falklands,(where one was destroyed in an Argentine attack,caused in some part to bad planning and lack of useful AA defence),have been resupplying UK forces in NI and Germany for the last 30 odd years and recently demonstrated their usefulness in the delivery of humanitarian aid to Basra in the closing stages of the "liberation" of Iraq.

[Bravo20]

So it has maybe 2 re-supply trips in the year. What does it do for the rest of the year?

[tashkugan]

I do believe that it is worth considering chartering or adding a supply vessel to the fleet (the chances are slim I know). You don't need a dedicated supply vessel per say but it could follow the norwegian or danish model where you use an OSV for just just this purpose.




Now if you were to plan for this you could well come up with something like the canadian Kingston class which includes space for modular storage between the stacks.

[John]

A subject like this came up a while ago and the Catamaran being evaluated by the U.S. was mentioned.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...s/ship/hsv.htm

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/disp...?story_id=3137

Mine Warfare Command and Control Configuration
Proposed MCW load out would include:

60 additional staff and personnel
Four SH/MH-60S helos
Six berthing trailers (10 berths per trailer)
Two hotel services trailers (toilet/shower)

Medical Support Facility Configuration
A Single baseline HSV can be configured to carry:

Six semi-trailers with fully-equipped operating rooms
Four water tankers
Four food trailers
Four toilet/shower trailers
Six HUMVEES
Eight to Twelve passenger busses
Radiological services
Medical laboratory to include; pharmacy, optometry lab, and cat scan
Mobile oxygen producing plant
Portal between twin Hulls providing a lee in order to take on patients at sea
Four Semi-Trailers hospital bed facility

Maritime Intercept Operations Configuration
HSV configured for ATFP / Maritime Intercept Operations (MIO) package:

Augments ship’s force protection capabilities and provides a full spectrum of landside/waterside security functions for ship port visits.
Force level protection is rapidly scalable and tailored to threat and host nation considerations.
Minimizes high cost airlift and local civilian contracting requirements by bringing organic mission support capabilities with the vessel (C2, berthing/messing, barriers, etc.)
44 additional personnel
Two 21' RHIBs rapidly deployed via "Moon Pool" with boarding/security party
Team of working dogs (cage area on vehicle deck 20'x20')
Four HMMWVs
Mammal pool (20'x20'x4' total weight 3500 pounds) deployed through "Moon Pool"
Support USCG HH-60J JayHawk involved in SAR/Armed Recon/Drug Interdiction

Notional Homeland Security (HLS) package:

22 additional personnel
Two 21' RHIBs rapidly deployed via "Moon Pool" with boarding/security party
Two USCG HH-60J or Special Forces (MH-6) on deck (up to Six in vehicle storage area)

[yellowjacket]

One problem with cats and trimarans seems to be that they don't handle rough seas well. Look how often the fast ferry sailings are cancelled in moderate weather.

[yooklid]

John, your links are broken

[Goldie fish]

The RN are currently leasing vessels for amphib transport, and when these ships are not required for military service they work on commercial shipping route,carrying civilian cargo. However given the strain that our fleet is under I dont think it would be too impractical to keep such a vessel working full time. Remember stores are delivered to the countries ports by civilan chartered vessels, There is no reason why this task could not be carried out by such a naval vessel,all the time providing a valuable training ship.
The Catmaran hull "fast ferry" type would be limited and over complicated for our needs.

[hptmurphy]

Send your requests on a post card.........has DF policy ever been changed by anything posted here....well whats the chances of getting what you desire.....maybe we should all chip in and sponsor one for the NS......By the way that canadian Yoke ........is that one of those that turned up in Portsmouth recently with the whole crew suffering from seasickness because of the poor sea handling....definetly don't want one of those......Yeah ! some of the north sea oil Support ships would be nice....at least they can handle heavy sea conditions

[c22910]

Would it not be a better use of budget to ship the materials commercially such as Hapag-lloyad and may provide escort with the niamh. It doesn't sound like we need this too often.

Would we not get greater use out of providing the IAC with a C-130.

[tashkugan]

An OSV would probably be the best option. I though the canadian idea was good from an inshore perspective as they have a huge coastline to patrol and supply etc. I mean we could always charter the Irish Lights Vessel Granuaile (20 ton crane & helipad) .



either way (charter c-130/charter ship) resupplying the liberian mission is going to be a very interesting exercise. hope they ship out a good workshop and spare gearboxes for those mowags.

[Farel']

Some of you here are thinking too big. The catmaran type vessel is still a thing of the future,and would require all our current defence budget to maintain engines alone...

The Offshore supply vessel style would be a good idea for pure resupply,as would the Grainuaile,but these vessels would have limited Command and control facilities,or would sarcrifice this space at the cost of potential troop transport.

Consider the scenario of the operation. The sea is secure,land is not. Recce elements need to make their way ashore for prolongued periods to locate and perhaps create a base of operations for any possible operation. on the way out,you need to carry the troops,but you will need to carry most of the heavy equipment. A certain self defence capability is vital, as is good long range comms equipment. Helipads are optional,though the availability of one may make interoperability with other forces easier(East Timor for example).

However as bravo pointed out when it is not engaged in this operation what could it do? Everything the current fleet can do and more hopefully. A combined Naval-Civilian nautical training ship has long been a requirment in this state, and the new naval/civilian nautical college being built in cork at the moment could make this ship a reality. Pollution control and monitoring is also a role the NS has neglected,due to other commitments. Of course there would be no reason that this ship type could not also carry out fisheries protection,visit foreign ports on economic and courtesy visits,drug interdiction etc...

[The Thing]

Poor New Zealand had their logs vessel taken!

They had a small logisitcs vessel a few years back and it was retired, it could hold up to 100 troops and was an ex-merchant ship.

[Goldie fish]

Thats what happens when you let a woman be defence minister....

[Harry]

Transport vessels....

Just heard Irish Ferries are looking to let go some staff but more interestingly some ships too. Would the NS have a need for vessel such as the Jonathan Swift for moving UN Troops and gear to missions rather than relying on foreign Naval assets. Obviously, it's not high on NS requirements but would such a civvie ship be convertable to naval requirements and would a twin hulled vessel such as the Swift be capable of going tp places like Liberia or the middle east. I did see the USMC / USN using similar vessels for MEU's on Rapid Response detail. I think it's a bit embarrasing for the DF to be shoving as many FFR's as they can onto a patrol vessel such as the Eithne and then relying on foreign naval / air assets to transport the rest of the gear.

[mutter nutter]

didn't the DF use a UN ro/ro type ship to get to a recent mission:confused: