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  • Speaking of training ships, does anybody else remember this gem of a book?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/We-Joined-N.../dp/1904459064
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

    Comment




    • HMNZS Canterbury demonstrating the EPV capability yet again.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        There are things other navies have that we don't have that are a far higher priority than training vessels. The Archer is mostly used to train reserve officers from the University units. Everyone else trains their crew on the job. Otherwise you are just tying up badly needed staff for training and support for the training ship. Our cadets used to spend time on Creidne and Tailte. That's good enough.
        " Good enough" is what has got us here . Training small numbers assigned to ships in penny packets is doable but generic professional training MUST come out of the classroom and scripts and be done hands on. There is no allotment of training staff at class level just the Training Officer, SNCO, and the rest must come from the Divisions. Nobody gets tied up unless there is a class to train . It doesn't matter what others do with their training craft or who trains on them. Recent video showed our cadets aboard US training vessels attached to an Academy. Most of the Aer Corps smaller aircraft are for training only.

        Comment


        • Got us where?
          We don't have large intakes of cadets. The current system of training has shown no weaknesses I am aware of. We are even taking Trainee officers on exchange from other navies so it must be pretty good.
          The Scale of the US academy permits them having large ships dedicated to training. Am I correct in thinking this was for merchant marine cadets? The Protectionism carried out by the US means they will always have large numbers of merchant seamen to train. The problem with training ships (as the US have found) is that weak cadets can hide behind their classmates, who do all the work, weak cadet, when commissioned, ends up qualified standing a watch with no idea how to deal with the most basic of incidents. They may do well academically, but are useless practically. Recent collisions with merchant vessels by USN ships have all shown this in inquiries. Reluctance to seek advice from a superior for fear of exposing their lack of ability.
          There has always been 2 stages to cadet training here, first in classroom, followed by work experience at sea, under supervision by qualified trainers. These trainers usually have other roles aboard ship. (except on occasion such as foreign trip etc). It does not justify having a SHIP dedicated to training. Instead you provide spare accommodation aboard operational ships for trainees. L.E. Eithne even gained a cadets mess during a recent refit, as other spaces that used to have an Air Corps function were re-purposed. I understand Naval Cadets used to gain work experience at sea aboard merchant vessels, I am unsure if this is currently the case. It was 5-10 years ago. You learn far more aboard a working ship than you will aboard a single role training ship, constrained in its travels by politics and operational needs.
          The Last Merchant training ship we had(a passenger tender built in the 1950s) was a floating classroom and little more. In my year as a deck cadet, while we were aboard weekly doing maintenance or classroom work, we went "to sea" (beyond Roches point) at most once a month. AMong the cadets aboard were usually at least 3 Naval Service Engineering officers, still undergoing training post commissioning. Oddly at that time Exec branch cadets did not attend civilian colleges to learn navigation, even though the majority of the trainers in the civilian college were Ex irish NS officers. Equipped with brass engine room telegraph and brass wheel and telemotor, it bore no similarity to anything any cadet would expect to be working with when they went to sea. If you count L.E Setanta as the last training ship the NS had, it was equally obsolete for its time, propelled by steam boiler when every other ship had diesels, with booms and sheers when other naval vessels used cranes and davits. You won't learn much tied to the quay wall either.
          Last edited by na grohmiti; 4 November 2020, 12:48.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Most of the Aer Corps smaller aircraft are for training only.
            By "Most" I assume you mean the 8 Pilatus PC9M. 2 of the EC135 Helicopters also carry out multiple roles, one of which is training.
            The other 13 aircraft are operational, and have no Air Corps training purpose other than crew conversion.

            Comment


            • I agree with your last point which is why a seaborne element of training is useful to all naval ratings. Naval training is not exclusive to cadets or YO's but must be available to all ranks. The 58th Cadet class did a weeks Navigation training in Dublin Bay on an embedment with an RN 2000 patrol vessel, while the class I was mentioning did their stint with the USN on a vessel attached to the US Naval Academy. An account of the US trip is in 2018 edition of An Cosantoir. The USN do not train merchant cadets, rather it is supervised by USCG through Merchant marine Academies. Such academies use large merchant training ships. The short comings of NMCI is a matter for them but I understand they now have Simulation both for bridge and Engine room which is probably better than the Blarney or Killarney.
              The first day in command of a powerfully engined ship can be traumatic for someone short of handling experience. Such experience is better found on a 2m unit rather than a 35, 45, or 60m unit.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Got us where?
                We don't have large intakes of cadets. The current system of training has shown no weaknesses I am aware of. We are even taking Trainee officers on exchange from other navies so it must be pretty good.
                The Scale of the US academy permits them having large ships dedicated to training. Am I correct in thinking this was for merchant marine cadets? The Protectionism carried out by the US means they will always have large numbers of merchant seamen to train. The problem with training ships (as the US have found) is that weak cadets can hide behind their classmates, who do all the work, weak cadet, when commissioned, ends up qualified standing a watch with no idea how to deal with the most basic of incidents. They may do well academically, but are useless practically. Recent collisions with merchant vessels by USN ships have all shown this in inquiries. Reluctance to seek advice from a superior for fear of exposing their lack of ability.
                There has always been 2 stages to cadet training here, first in classroom, followed by work experience at sea, under supervision by qualified trainers. These trainers usually have other roles aboard ship. (except on occasion such as foreign trip etc). It does not justify having a SHIP dedicated to training. Instead you provide spare accommodation aboard operational ships for trainees. L.E. Eithne even gained a cadets mess during a recent refit, as other spaces that used to have an Air Corps function were re-purposed. I understand Naval Cadets used to gain work experience at sea aboard merchant vessels, I am unsure if this is currently the case. It was 5-10 years ago. You learn far more aboard a working ship than you will aboard a single role training ship, constrained in its travels by politics and operational needs.
                The Last Merchant training ship we had(a passenger tender built in the 1950s) was a floating classroom and little more. In my year as a deck cadet, while we were aboard weekly doing maintenance or classroom work, we went "to sea" (beyond Roches point) at most once a month. AMong the cadets aboard were usually at least 3 Naval Service Engineering officers, still undergoing training post commissioning. Oddly at that time Exec branch cadets did not attend civilian colleges to learn navigation, even though the majority of the trainers in the civilian college were Ex irish NS officers. Equipped with brass engine room telegraph and brass wheel and telemotor, it bore no similarity to anything any cadet would expect to be working with when they went to sea. If you count L.E Setanta as the last training ship the NS had, it was equally obsolete for its time, propelled by steam boiler when every other ship had diesels, with booms and sheers when other naval vessels used cranes and davits. You won't learn much tied to the quay wall either.
                I seem to remember a Cadets Mess on Eithne from day one , opposite the ratings mess next door to the canteen .
                Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                Comment


                • Isn’t a lot of NS Rating training, at sea and filling in the task book (or is that just NSR)?

                  They are under supervision of ratings who are doing the job day in day out

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                    I seem to remember a Cadets Mess on Eithne from day one , opposite the ratings mess next door to the canteen .
                    They moved it to a quieter location. Up to 01 deck next to the Ward Room, I was told.

                    https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...7_Jul_1982.pdf
                    Last edited by na grohmiti; 4 November 2020, 18:33.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      They moved it to a quieter location. Up to 01 deck next to the Ward Room, I was told.

                      https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...7_Jul_1982.pdf
                      Don't recall any cadets mess on any deck. Canteen was near the PO's mess. the 01 deck had wardroom, Pantry, officers cabins , bathroom, and air detachment cabins later incorporated in part to the wardroom space. The ship had up to 10 trainee bunks dispersed not in one block . Cadets could be accommodated in spare cabins on the Captains deck.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        Don't recall any cadets mess on any deck. Canteen was near the PO's mess. the 01 deck had wardroom, Pantry, officers cabins , bathroom, and air detachment cabins later incorporated in part to the wardroom space. The ship had up to 10 trainee bunks dispersed not in one block . Cadets could be accommodated in spare cabins on the Captains deck.
                        Cadets cabin id say was meant.

                        That was near the Galley circa 2000.

                        When not in use for Cadets, it was a buckshee storeroom!!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
                          Cadets cabin id say was meant.

                          That was near the Galley circa 2000.

                          When not in use for Cadets, it was a buckshee storeroom!!!
                          Yes ,Cadets cabin , doubled up as their mess .
                          Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                            Yes ,Cadets cabin , doubled up as their mess .
                            Just to broaden the discussion. Britannia Maritime aid are proposing building ships based on 140m hull. These ships are to be HADR capable BUT with the additional role of " To provide value plus STCW-compliant seatime for Maritime trainees." The US is currently building 5 National Security Multi-mission vessels to include training facilities for up to 600 trainees. The role will be dual HADR and training in a realistic manner for those that need compliant seatime using modern handling equipments.
                            The Britannia proposal sees capability:
                            Deliver up 6000tonnes stores and equipment.
                            Carryout Airborne surveys Rotary and UM Fixed wing
                            Accommodate up to 200 relief/rescue personnel.
                            Put equipment ashore regardless of conditions in the arrival port.
                            Put ashore a field hospital containerised/tented to WHO2 standards.
                            Deliver clothing and austere tenting for homeless.
                            Deliver ashore vehicles to conduct rescue, rebuilding and recovery operations.
                            Feed up to 2000 persons twice a day.
                            Make and deliver 1000 tonnes of FW per day
                            Act as on scene Command/ Communications ship .
                            The crews would be mostly trainees with a strong mentoring teaching staff.
                            The overall proposal is in November 2020 Seaways magazine or the nautical Institute. Worth a read to inform an outline Specification.??
                            The weak link is the sporadic nature of HADR incidents and the need to task the ship fully eg Logs and Patrol and trainee seatime.
                            Last edited by ancientmariner; 6 November 2020, 09:06.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              Just to broaden the discussion. Britannia Maritime aid are proposing building ships based on 140m hull. These ships are to be HADR capable BUT with the additional role of " To provide value plus STCW-compliant seatime for Maritime trainees." The US is currently building 5 National Security Multi-mission vessels to include training facilities for up to 600 trainees. The role will be dual HADR and training in a realistic manner for those that need compliant seatime using modern handling equipments.
                              The Britannia proposal sees capability:
                              Deliver up 6000tonnes stores and equipment.
                              Carryout Airborne surveys Rotary and UM Fixed wing
                              Accommodate up to 200 relief/rescue personnel.
                              Put equipment ashore regardless of conditions in the arrival port.
                              Put ashore a field hospital containerised/tented to WHO2 standards.
                              Deliver clothing and austere tenting for homeless.
                              Deliver ashore vehicles to conduct rescue, rebuilding and recovery operations.
                              Feed up to 2000 persons twice a day.
                              Make and deliver 1000 tonnes of FW per day
                              Act as on scene Command/ Communications ship .
                              The crews would be mostly trainees with a strong mentoring teaching staff.
                              The overall proposal is in November 2020 Seaways magazine or the nautical Institute. Worth a read to inform an outline Specification.??
                              The weak link is the sporadic nature of HADR incidents and the need to task the ship fully eg Logs and Patrol and trainee seatime.
                              Second last line delete "or" and replace with " of ".

                              Comment


                              • Britannia Maritime is really just a concept that they are trying to crowd fund.

                                The MRV could potentially spend a lot of time with trainees aboard

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