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  • Doesn’t necessarily have to go to RFI could do straight to RFP or RFT

    But the information provided for the EPV is now out of date

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Doesn’t necessarily have to go to RFI could do straight to RFP or RFT

      But the information provided for the EPV is now out of date
      And people in the NS have been actively drawing up their requirements based on what's available, and the NZ experience. We already have the brochures, we just need to see who will give us the best deal.
      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
      German 2: Private? I am a general!
      German 1: That is the bad news.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Wholeheartedly disagree. This is a long term plan. This is planning for something which will happen in 5 years time, whether the staffing shortage was there or not, the inevitable retirement of L.E. Eithne, the last ship built in the state.
        You cannot put off major equipment purchases in future because of events happening today. If you do, and on reaching 2025, realise you have the crew, but hey, Eithne can't go to sea because of her hull/machinery being past it, then it will take you 5 years without any capability before you get it back, and another 5 years to get it up to operational again.
        Did the Air Corps decide to put off replacing the Casa because of Pilot shortages? Likewise for the Cessna 172!
        When Eithne was built, the NS was also short of crew, it held a huge recruiting campaign, and took on 100 extra ratings before the ship entered service. These people were able to fill vacancies on other ships to allow experienced crew to go aboard and bring the ship into service. Some of P64's crew were it's crew a year before it even left Appledore! The idea of a helicopter capable Naval vessel in Irish service was actually a useful recruiting tool at the time.

        To use the phrase from a movie, "If you build it they will come".
        The priority needs to be personnel retention, first and foremost. Without it, in 2025 what will be left? The NS is losing the equivalent of a ship's crew every year in personnel. Tendering for a new ship without a genuine effort to retain personnel is a disaster waiting to happen. Particularly for a vessel that will likely be crew heavy.
        Trying to recruit your way out of the problem hasn't worked with the NS losing 20% of its strength since the P60s started to arrive.
        The Air Corps hasn't indefinitely grounded aircraft due to lack of pilots.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
          The priority needs to be personnel retention, first and foremost. Without it, in 2025 what will be left? The NS is losing the equivalent of a ship's crew every year in personnel. Tendering for a new ship without a genuine effort to retain personnel is a disaster waiting to happen. Particularly for a vessel that will likely be crew heavy.
          Trying to recruit your way out of the problem hasn't worked with the NS losing 20% of its strength since the P60s started to arrive.
          The Air Corps hasn't indefinitely grounded aircraft due to lack of pilots.
          The Air Corps has no aircraft operating 24 hours/365 days a year, and is unable to maintain 24 hr ATC.
          he ship will not be crew heavy, no more than Eithne was when she entered service (and she was expected to have a crew of 100).
          The recruitment issue can be fixed easily by govt. If we didn't have arseholes holding BOTH the position of SecGen DoD and Minister with responsibility for defence for the last 3 years, this could have been sorted long ago. Mistakes were made, luckily we had the right DF leadership in office. Unfortunately it cannot be fixed overnight, but we are going in the right direction.
          German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
          German 2: Private? I am a general!
          German 1: That is the bad news.

          Comment


          • Afaik AC ATC is back 24/7

            Comment


            • it held a huge recruiting campaign, and took on 100 extra ratings before the ship entered service
              110, I was number 16 on the list.,

              if and when we do order this type we need to learn from the biggest mistake that was made around Eithne, not having a second unit in the class, . Build one, run it for 12 months and build a second one. If it is to be such an important asset , what happens when its out of service for refits etc.


              I know its a little pre emptive but future proofing is the key
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                Afaik AC ATC is back 24/7
                Benefiting who?
                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                German 1: That is the bad news.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  The Air Corps has no aircraft operating 24 hours/365 days a year, and is unable to maintain 24 hr ATC.
                  he ship will not be crew heavy, no more than Eithne was when she entered service (and she was expected to have a crew of 100).
                  The recruitment issue can be fixed easily by govt. If we didn't have arseholes holding BOTH the position of SecGen DoD and Minister with responsibility for defence for the last 3 years, this could have been sorted long ago. Mistakes were made, luckily we had the right DF leadership in office. Unfortunately it cannot be fixed overnight, but we are going in the right direction.
                  That's not accurate in regards to the Air Corps.
                  If the Air Corps indefinitely grounded aircraft due to lack of pilots then I'd be the first one to say no additional aircraft should be ordered unit retention issues were sorted. But that is not the case.
                  The real issue isn't recruitment, its retention. While most of the General Staff are good leaders the current CoS has been part of the problem, spending the last five years constantly whitewashing and denying there is even a manpower crisis. At least the current FOCNS isn't afraid to make hard decisions.
                  It's still a long way from starting to improve.

                  Comment


                  • Honkeys never liked him.
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      110, I was number 16 on the list.,

                      if and when we do order this type we need to learn from the biggest mistake that was made around Eithne, not having a second unit in the class, . Build one, run it for 12 months and build a second one. If it is to be such an important asset , what happens when its out of service for refits etc.


                      I know its a little pre emptive but future proofing is the key
                      Without question that would be ideal, but I expect as soon as this goes for contract, there's going to be screaming from the usual suspects in the Daíl and Media about the "€200 million" and how it could be used to magically fix "whatever", I can't see anyone being willing to defend spending another 200 million even though as you say it makes total sense. Also if it/they are going to be helicopter capable, buy the ****ing Helicopters!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                        Without question that would be ideal, but I expect as soon as this goes for contract, there's going to be screaming from the usual suspects in the Daíl and Media about the "€200 million" and how it could be used to magically fix "whatever", I can't see anyone being willing to defend spending another 200 million even though as you say it makes total sense. Also if it/they are going to be helicopter capable, buy the ****ing Helicopters!
                        Another €200m? How much does it cost to design a ship of this nature? A lot, a large proportion of the cost will be related to the design effort. This is normally reduced by basing the design on an existing one but even then the costs are significant. So of the €200m up to €50m could be related to the design, testing and qualification efforts.

                        But to get the second vessel we have to get real about defence, Bulgaria just ordered 2 new multi purpose modular patrol vessels, cost point = €503m. Bulgaria the place of cheap skiing holidays, the place you go when Spain and Turkey are too expensive for your summer hols.

                        Maybe we need to sell the costs differently, so lets say €400m for two vessels, and that they will stay in service for 40 years, that is €10m per year, even with running costs this capability is likely to be around €20m per year.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          Without question that would be ideal, but I expect as soon as this goes for contract, there's going to be screaming from the usual suspects in the Daíl and Media about the "€200 million" and how it could be used to magically fix "whatever", I can't see anyone being willing to defend spending another 200 million even though as you say it makes total sense. Also if it/they are going to be helicopter capable, buy the ****ing Helicopters!
                          Doesn't have to be 'our' helos. Usually international missions have many contributors. imagine if we had the capability to take helos during OP Pontus, plenty of Helo operators could have used such a platform.

                          If they want to sell it on the level of an international capable vessel, need to look at what makes it attractive to operate along side it.

                          "€200 million"
                          About the same cost as the addition of a helo pad on top of the Childrens hospital
                          Last edited by hptmurphy; 23 November 2020, 21:21.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            The Air Corps has no aircraft operating 24 hours/365 days a year, and is unable to maintain 24 hr ATC.
                            he ship will not be crew heavy, no more than Eithne was when she entered service (and she was expected to have a crew of 100).
                            The recruitment issue can be fixed easily by govt. If we didn't have arseholes holding BOTH the position of SecGen DoD and Minister with responsibility for defence for the last 3 years, this could have been sorted long ago. Mistakes were made, luckily we had the right DF leadership in office. Unfortunately it cannot be fixed overnight, but we are going in the right direction.
                            Part of bringing the P31 to commission was drawing up and submitting crew requirements. As far as I remember with full crew, air element, and trainees on board the figure would reach 68. With crew only the figure was more like 55. If you add SGR to the 55 you might reach 75. The only thing that moves to increased spending moments are " Events" or perceived requirements of various memberships or alliances. EU and partnerships maybe.

                            Comment


                            • Wasn’t it 85 Max crew?
                              72 plus 7/8 AC ?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                Wasn’t it 85 Max crew?
                                72 plus 7/8 AC ?
                                The Gentleman is referring to the initial proposed requirements.
                                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                                German 1: That is the bad news.

                                Comment

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