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  • Karel Doorman is a hell of a baseline to work from.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      Karel Doorman is a hell of a baseline to work from.
      That's one way to put it, I wonder would it be that or something else like the Crossover that they would put forward? What would you have to cut down to get it under €200 million?

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      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

        That's one way to put it, I wonder would it be that or something else like the Crossover that they would put forward? What would you have to cut down to get it under €200 million?
        Her mast alone is worth €100m.(new). And while the tanking is a useful feature, none of our current fleet are equipped for RAS.
        not sure of the usefulness of the steel beach for our purpose either. I'd prefer a stern and side ramp to the vehicle deck instead.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • NS are planning for a 140m long jetty in 2027 in Haulbowline

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            NS are planning for a 140m long jetty in 2027 in Haulbowline
            Where is that likely to be placed?

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            • Would it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?

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              • Originally posted by ias View Post
                Would it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?
                Any equipped Frigate comes with a whole package of areas that the Irish Navy has effectively no skill set in (ASW, limited AAW), standing up such a capability while long needed imo would need a hell of a lot more financial support than what is currently planned for. Besides 1 frigate isn’t really of much use for anyone, certainly not for covering our EEZ and any important infrastructure in it.

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                • Originally posted by ias View Post
                  Would it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?
                  We actually need both

                  Not mutually exclusive

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                  • General purpose frigate (of which at least 2 would be needed) would require double the crew of an MRV type vessel. We aren't there yet. Not to mention the MRV is so far in the planning stage now to decide suddenly to go all frigaty would be a waste of millions of funds already spent on this project since 2008.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post

                      Any equipped Frigate comes with a whole package of areas that the Irish Navy has effectively no skill set in (ASW, limited AAW), standing up such a capability while long needed imo would need a hell of a lot more financial support than what is currently planned for. Besides 1 frigate isn’t really of much use for anyone, certainly not for covering our EEZ and any important infrastructure in it.
                      We could retrofit a basic entry level (at least surveillance) capability onto the P60s relatively easily:

                      - air & surface search radar

                      - operationalise Aeolus https://www.nimbus.cit.ie/project/aeolus-2/

                      - containerised variable depth sonar

                      - operationalise the Guard project
                      https://theguardproject.com

                      - UUV / USV with ASW sonar capability

                      Of course that needs to linked to the RMP and

                      the ability to link with Copernicus​ also





                      the ability to do anything about what you detect is a very different kettle of fish
                      Last edited by DeV; 4 January 2023, 21:42.

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                      • Not forgetting the MARSUR project

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                        • In my very humble opinion a logistics orientated MRV with significant freight/ troop carrying capacity is way down the list of what Ireland needs in 2023.

                          To my eyes the MRV is a vanity project to have a “big ship” that ticks a lot of boxes for politicians and government departments. It will look good, have significant humanitarian/ disaster relief capabilities and absolutely of critical importance to politicians NO war fighting ability whatsoever.

                          But from a very high level strategic perspective what Ireland really needs is to be able to monitor above and below the surface of our sees and if necessary take some limited action. So 2 type 31 Frigates would be a much wiser investment in terms of what we actually need.

                          Final point - Ireland already has excellent NGO’s in place for humanitarian relief. We have a tiny army that will maintain a battalion minus deployment in the Leb. This does not require an MRV. Based on current mood in the country we will not be sending our heavy armor (oops we don’t have any) our light armor (we only have 6 Mowags with 30mm) overseas for exercises on the Salisbury plain or anywhere else. So why are we buying a military ferry?

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                          • Originally posted by Banner View Post
                            In my very humble opinion a logistics orientated MRV with significant freight/ troop carrying capacity is way down the list of what Ireland needs in 2023.

                            To my eyes the MRV is a vanity project to have a “big ship” that ticks a lot of boxes for politicians and government departments. It will look good, have significant humanitarian/ disaster relief capabilities and absolutely of critical importance to politicians NO war fighting ability whatsoever.

                            But from a very high level strategic perspective what Ireland really needs is to be able to monitor above and below the surface of our sees and if necessary take some limited action. So 2 type 31 Frigates would be a much wiser investment in terms of what we actually need.

                            Final point - Ireland already has excellent NGO’s in place for humanitarian relief. We have a tiny army that will maintain a battalion minus deployment in the Leb. This does not require an MRV. Based on current mood in the country we will not be sending our heavy armor (oops we don’t have any) our light armor (we only have 6 Mowags with 30mm) overseas for exercises on the Salisbury plain or anywhere else. So why are we buying a military ferry?
                            Won’t comment on priorities but the State is committed to PSOs. We have a proven capability (that has been in some ways run down) to conduct PSOs with a robust mandates requiring projection of those capabilities. For example, East Timor, Kosovo, Liberia and Chad.

                            If/when the new whatever EUBGs will be called are in place they will need to training (and deploy) overseas.

                            If the State wants to maintain involvement at the forefront of PSOs, it must be capable of doing so. The DF also wants those capabilities (which also contribute to national defence capabilities).

                            With a move to LOA2 (and hopefully 3) the DF will definitely be at the fore of robust overseas deployments and definitely in larger numbers.

                            What is desired from the MRV is well progressed, that is the ability to deploy vehicles and stores (not sure about troops) into a permissive port but we are never likely to be doing it alone (unlike France, U.K. etc) or across the beach.

                            There is plenty of jobs the MRV can do. It could end up like Type 31 with TEU capabilities or like Canterbury (but with lessons learnt). But the Type 31 (or similar) will not lift a Mech Inf Coy Gp (or larger).

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                            • Thanks Dev. I see your point. I’m not saying that the ability to transport a mech inf company overseas is without value. On the contrary it would be great to have this capability but you have to ask is that capability MORE important than sonar ?

                              Would you prefer our patrol vessels to have air search radar and limited defence capabilities?

                              Finally can u see the triple lock being removed? (I can’t) and until that’s gone we won’t be participating in any PSO operations (robust or otherwise) as there will be no UN resolution. Which means we can only send 12 personal or less.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Banner View Post
                                Thanks Dev. I see your point. I’m not saying that the ability to transport a mech inf company overseas is without value. On the contrary it would be great to have this capability but you have to ask is that capability MORE important than sonar ?

                                Would you prefer our patrol vessels to have air search radar and limited defence capabilities?

                                Finally can u see the triple lock being removed? (I can’t) and until that’s gone we won’t be participating in any PSO operations (robust or otherwise) as there will be no UN resolution. Which means we can only send 12 personal or less.
                                By design (or accident) we project soft power and influence via NGOs, PSOs etc….. and it has been successful. Not that I’m saying radar, sonar etc aren’t important.

                                we must have at least a limited capability to see what’s going on. That is essential.

                                That’s a political decision (and the only party that would potentially push for it is Fine Gael).

                                ONUC, INTERFET/UNTAET, KFOR, IFOR/SFOR, UNMIL, UNDOF, EUFOR Chad and UNIFIL (since 2006) all robust UN authorised missions where at least a coy has been deployed (Pln to East Timor). Liberia and Chad being probably the most challenging.

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