Karel Doorman is a hell of a baseline to work from.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
That's one way to put it, I wonder would it be that or something else like the Crossover that they would put forward? What would you have to cut down to get it under €200 million?
not sure of the usefulness of the steel beach for our purpose either. I'd prefer a stern and side ramp to the vehicle deck instead.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Would it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?
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Originally posted by ias View PostWould it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?
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Originally posted by ias View PostWould it not make more sense, in the current geopolitical climate, to procure a General Purpose Frigate rather than a Multi Role Vessel? Are frigate based MRVs capable of combat operations? I know Absalon has been converted to an ASW Frigate does it still maintain its logistics role?
Not mutually exclusive
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General purpose frigate (of which at least 2 would be needed) would require double the crew of an MRV type vessel. We aren't there yet. Not to mention the MRV is so far in the planning stage now to decide suddenly to go all frigaty would be a waste of millions of funds already spent on this project since 2008.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
Any equipped Frigate comes with a whole package of areas that the Irish Navy has effectively no skill set in (ASW, limited AAW), standing up such a capability while long needed imo would need a hell of a lot more financial support than what is currently planned for. Besides 1 frigate isn’t really of much use for anyone, certainly not for covering our EEZ and any important infrastructure in it.
- air & surface search radar
- operationalise Aeolus https://www.nimbus.cit.ie/project/aeolus-2/
- containerised variable depth sonar
- operationalise the Guard project
- UUV / USV with ASW sonar capability
Of course that needs to linked to the RMP and
the ability to link with Copernicus also
the ability to do anything about what you detect is a very different kettle of fishLast edited by DeV; 4 January 2023, 21:42.
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In my very humble opinion a logistics orientated MRV with significant freight/ troop carrying capacity is way down the list of what Ireland needs in 2023.
To my eyes the MRV is a vanity project to have a “big ship” that ticks a lot of boxes for politicians and government departments. It will look good, have significant humanitarian/ disaster relief capabilities and absolutely of critical importance to politicians NO war fighting ability whatsoever.
But from a very high level strategic perspective what Ireland really needs is to be able to monitor above and below the surface of our sees and if necessary take some limited action. So 2 type 31 Frigates would be a much wiser investment in terms of what we actually need.
Final point - Ireland already has excellent NGO’s in place for humanitarian relief. We have a tiny army that will maintain a battalion minus deployment in the Leb. This does not require an MRV. Based on current mood in the country we will not be sending our heavy armor (oops we don’t have any) our light armor (we only have 6 Mowags with 30mm) overseas for exercises on the Salisbury plain or anywhere else. So why are we buying a military ferry?
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Originally posted by Banner View PostIn my very humble opinion a logistics orientated MRV with significant freight/ troop carrying capacity is way down the list of what Ireland needs in 2023.
To my eyes the MRV is a vanity project to have a “big ship” that ticks a lot of boxes for politicians and government departments. It will look good, have significant humanitarian/ disaster relief capabilities and absolutely of critical importance to politicians NO war fighting ability whatsoever.
But from a very high level strategic perspective what Ireland really needs is to be able to monitor above and below the surface of our sees and if necessary take some limited action. So 2 type 31 Frigates would be a much wiser investment in terms of what we actually need.
Final point - Ireland already has excellent NGO’s in place for humanitarian relief. We have a tiny army that will maintain a battalion minus deployment in the Leb. This does not require an MRV. Based on current mood in the country we will not be sending our heavy armor (oops we don’t have any) our light armor (we only have 6 Mowags with 30mm) overseas for exercises on the Salisbury plain or anywhere else. So why are we buying a military ferry?
If/when the new whatever EUBGs will be called are in place they will need to training (and deploy) overseas.
If the State wants to maintain involvement at the forefront of PSOs, it must be capable of doing so. The DF also wants those capabilities (which also contribute to national defence capabilities).
With a move to LOA2 (and hopefully 3) the DF will definitely be at the fore of robust overseas deployments and definitely in larger numbers.
What is desired from the MRV is well progressed, that is the ability to deploy vehicles and stores (not sure about troops) into a permissive port but we are never likely to be doing it alone (unlike France, U.K. etc) or across the beach.
There is plenty of jobs the MRV can do. It could end up like Type 31 with TEU capabilities or like Canterbury (but with lessons learnt). But the Type 31 (or similar) will not lift a Mech Inf Coy Gp (or larger).
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Thanks Dev. I see your point. I’m not saying that the ability to transport a mech inf company overseas is without value. On the contrary it would be great to have this capability but you have to ask is that capability MORE important than sonar ?
Would you prefer our patrol vessels to have air search radar and limited defence capabilities?
Finally can u see the triple lock being removed? (I can’t) and until that’s gone we won’t be participating in any PSO operations (robust or otherwise) as there will be no UN resolution. Which means we can only send 12 personal or less.
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Originally posted by Banner View PostThanks Dev. I see your point. I’m not saying that the ability to transport a mech inf company overseas is without value. On the contrary it would be great to have this capability but you have to ask is that capability MORE important than sonar ?
Would you prefer our patrol vessels to have air search radar and limited defence capabilities?
Finally can u see the triple lock being removed? (I can’t) and until that’s gone we won’t be participating in any PSO operations (robust or otherwise) as there will be no UN resolution. Which means we can only send 12 personal or less.
we must have at least a limited capability to see what’s going on. That is essential.
That’s a political decision (and the only party that would potentially push for it is Fine Gael).
ONUC, INTERFET/UNTAET, KFOR, IFOR/SFOR, UNMIL, UNDOF, EUFOR Chad and UNIFIL (since 2006) all robust UN authorised missions where at least a coy has been deployed (Pln to East Timor). Liberia and Chad being probably the most challenging.
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