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  • Naval assets

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    They are flexible and multi-role, but equally adding a possible future capability (at initial cost) that will possibly be never be used is not good VFM, if it was ever to be used it would have months of a lead time (better than years yes) and will cost (but yes cheaper than a new vessel).
    The value for money mantra is government speak for spending money selectively in areas of benefit to certain goals such as positive public reaction.
    Defence Forces have some of the hallmarks of a fire brigade. When the s--t hits the fan they are expected to turn in a premiership performance. EVERYTHING about Defence is just in case, be ready, and be GOOD TO GO, whatever the mission. Fishery Protection is important for honing navigation, boarding, seamanship, and rough weather skills. Multirole requires additional levels of skills and capability. An honest appraisal shows we are low on assets and we need more firepower including missiles.

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    • Knew I'd find an old thread on this

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      • 3 fishery patrol vessels training together from two neighbours, both with the same role for their respective countries. The only difference? One has a merlin capable flight deck, the other two are Irish.
        http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and...yne-irish-navy
        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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        • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
          The only difference? One has a merlin capable flight deck, the other two are Irish.
          http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and...yne-irish-navy
          Incorrect, none of them have a Flight Deck.
          Only HMS Clyde has the flight deck, the first three (Tyne, Severn and Mersey) don't.
          Last edited by CTU; 7 June 2015, 14:57.
          It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
          It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
          It was a new age...It was the end of history.
          It was the year everything changed.

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          • The Naval Service is currently carrying out sterling work on a challenging mission in the Mediterranean.

            They maintain a conventional military function and practice those functions with annual fleet exercises all the while maintaining their required number of patrol days to support there fishery protection commitments.

            They are involved in the design development and induction into service of new vessels and they have a plan to add significantly more capable vessels in the future.

            They still manage to find the time to carry out valuable exercises with a foreign naval force..

            Might be worthwhile comparing these achievements to the AC..
            Last edited by Charlie252; 7 June 2015, 18:13.

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            • Originally posted by CTU View Post
              Incorrect, none of them have a Flight Deck.
              Only HMS Clyde has the flight deck, the first three (Tyne, Severn and Mersey) don't.
              Point taken, clyde is still a fisheries protection vessel though no? That's really the point I was trying to make.
              "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
              "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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              • I think the NS should aim at becoming a world leader in the use and development of unmanned aircraft and sail technology (which I thought was in train at present) There is the possibility of creating a manufacturing base (jobs) in a niche area like this which would benefit the country as a whole. I'd be happy with a couple more P60's and then a HPV or two with landing facillities and trained deckcrew. There is no need for helicopters on routine patrols. The Coastguard helis should be allocated back to the military.....An expensive ideological PRIVATIZATION exercise and nothing else.

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                • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
                  Point taken, clyde is still a fisheries protection vessel though no? That's really the point I was trying to make.
                  not really, she's an OPV (in the true sense of the term), one of who's duties is FP - backing up the FIG FP vessels - but she's also doing roles which would broadly equate to anti-smuggling, counter-terrorism, sovereignty, SAR, and support (logistical, flying, fire etc..) for land forces.

                  which looks rather a lot to me like the list of tasks the NS has, its just that people fixate on the FP role.

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                  • Clyde is far more than fisheries. She is the Falklands Island patrol ship. She is the naval presence in the islands, and will be the first line of defence should the Argies decide to have another go. She can deploy a marine detachment. In 1982 Endurance and her detachment kept the Junta Navy guessing for a while as they hid behind the islands, and carried out numerous attacks while waiting for the big guns to arrive. She replaced the Castle class which could land a sea king on its helideck.
                    Their biggest weakness, which is impossible to understand is their inadequate armament. The Castle class had 1 BMARK 30mm cannon and 4 GPMG, while Clyde only has a 30mm Bushmaster, 2 miniguns and 5 GPMGs.
                    A OTO Melara 76mm would not take up much more space.

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                    • Originally posted by na grohmit√≠ View Post
                      ...Their biggest weakness, which is impossible to understand is their inadequate armament. The Castle class had 1 BMARK 30mm cannon and 4 GPMG, while Clyde only has a 30mm Bushmaster, 2 miniguns and 5 GPMGs.
                      A OTO Melara 76mm would not take up much more space.
                      dunno, its worth remembering that Clyde is part of a package - a package that certainly involves a very long ranged airsearch aradars and 'communications equipment', a handful of tooled-up Typhoon fighters flying at warp speed, possibly/probably includes a dirty great SSN, and depending on circumstance either a T23 or T45 - unless you turned her into a FFG with anti-ship, AAW and ASW capability she's not going to start brassing up an oncoming invasion fleet, even with a 76mm, because she'd get blown out of the water for no effect.

                      would a T23/T45 be preferable? yes, it would mean never having to worry about Clyde being outgunned, however given the current/foreseeable threat, and the wider UK assets and intelligence gatering capabilities in place to mitigate that and future threats, Clyde is within the parameters of 'appropriate' for the task/environment.

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                      • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                        Might be worthwhile comparing these achievements to the AC..
                        Interesting point about comparing NS productivity, resourcefulness and VFM to that of AC.

                        Seems to be a common point that is raising across a number of threads on the forum at the minute, and one which I've commented on in a thread myself.

                        Seems to be the AC is more and more looking like the weak link in any of the services moving forward with any type of combined ops.
                        Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

                        And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

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                        • Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                          ...Seems to be the AC is more and more looking like the weak link in any of the services moving forward with any type of combined ops.
                          tbh, seeing the job the NS is doing in the Med from the outside (and recalling that before this job came up the NS were on the brink of going to the EU Indian Ocean counter-piracy job), and contrasting that to the 'not doing that' attitude we've seen from the AC despite the very expensive assets they've been given, if i were the AC headshed i'd be checking the 'situations vacant' page in the local rag. more importantly, i can't believe that this hasn't been noticed by the politicians, and that they haven't drawn conclusions about the future viability/utility of the various forces...


                          the word contractorisation leaps to mind.

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                          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            tbh, seeing the job the NS is doing in the Med from the outside (and recalling that before this job came up the NS were on the brink of going to the EU Indian Ocean counter-piracy job), and contrasting that to the 'not doing that' attitude we've seen from the AC despite the very expensive assets they've been given, if i were the AC headshed i'd be checking the 'situations vacant' page in the local rag. more importantly, i can't believe that this hasn't been noticed by the politicians, and that they haven't drawn conclusions about the future viability/utility of the various forces...


                            the word contractorisation leaps to mind.
                            I agree with you. The NS has stepped up, and appears to have been chomping at the bit to get involved, while the AC seem to be happy to remain a mostly ministerial taxi and air ambulance service. Piss or get off the pot time.
                            What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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                            • interesting comments over on defence forces ex members etc page:

                              one person commented saying we had no naval heli operable vessels anymore, another guy (ex AC) said that Eithne has a heli deck, original poster tells him its not been used in this manner in a long time and has a rib cradle and crane on the landing pad and therefore cannot take helis any more. AC guy then asks why we stopped using helis on eithne, original poster writes this:
                              My understanding of it is that factors such as cooperation/understanding of navy requirements, between aircorps of the time and naval service of the time was difficult to maintain as the helis were never really permanently deployed on the vessel, only 2 of the five aircraft were navalised versions and other civi roles of the time meant they had limited availability also casa maritime patrol aircraft were purchased and we didn't replace the dauphin with a comparably sized navalised heli. The choice of heli she could operate was limited as the deck is only rated for a 5 tons. Ultimately the navy needs is own naval squadron and pilots seperate from the aircorps or a new redefined working relationship with todays AC.
                              AC guy then responds with this honest comment:
                              It was definitely a reason I left. I remember thinking that I didn't join the Air Corps to spend 3 weeks at a time 200 miles out in the Atlantic. My 9 years were coming up, wedding plans well on the way. So a cushy civvy job looked more appealing!
                              more reason than ever to have naval air assets, based on or near the naval base with naval maintenance naval armorers and naval flyers.
                              "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                              "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                              • That was always the better idea, but the flying club had better ideas. Same thing happened with SAR. Only when it was taken from them and given to a prvate company (at huge expense) did they sit up and realise what could have been, cue former senior AC officer coming out of the woodwork and saying "The Air Corpse coulda woulda shoulda".

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