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Naval Wishlist(realistic)

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  • Naval Wishlist(realistic)

    In response to a query from a reasonable member of the board (not newby) here is the List of ship requirements for the Modern Irish naval service. Call it the ultimate wish list, for current requirements.




    The Wish list as mentioned came about before and after the white paper most notably from the Report to the Steering Group of the Irish Naval Service and Air Corps, A former Naval service senior officer both of these are on the web, but I cant remember where.
    The Steering group recommended certain changes in the logistics and taskings of the Naval service, but with an 8 ship navy, with the then current (1998) fleet being replaced over 18 years at a cost of IR£195m with ships more suitably equipped for the role.
    The former Naval officer, Peadar McElhinny, Pointed out that the Average Naval fleet in Europe was 88 ships, with the Belgians, who had territorial seas a fraction the size of our own have 18 vessels. Having 8 ships he said was the same as the Gardai having one Patrol car to cover the Whole Island of Ireland! The Naval service was looking for a minimum 15-ship fleet.

    But by far the Beefiest wish list that made its way into the public domain was printed in the July/August issue of on Cosantoir in 1999.In an article written by one Greg Browne who had earlier written a similar piece about the Air Corps.
    The requirements given the current tasks and responsibilities of the Naval service sought the following fleet, which isn't that far fetched really.

    #4 Multi Purpose Guided Missile frigates equipped with Helicopter, SAM, SSM, CIWS and AS Torpedoes.
    Capable of 30 kts these ships would require a crew of 150-200 and cost Between IR£200 and IR£250
    Examples include the VSEL Frigate 2000,Chantiers de l'Atlantique Floreal and Meko 200




    #4 P31 Helicopter carrying Frigates equipped with Helicopter,SAM and AS TT.
    These frigates would require a crew of 85 and would cost approximately IR£55m



    #4 P51 Corvettes upgraded to include SONAR,air/surface radar,SAM,AS TT and Minelaying capability
    The Corvettes would require a crew of 60 and would cost IR£35m upgraded



    #4 Minesweepers armed with CIWS and GAMB-01 Cannon performing a secondary coastal patrol function.
    The Minesweepers would require a crew of 45 and cost IR£20m.Examples include the Lurssen 323 Class and the Fincantieri Gaeta




    #A-17 Fleet replenishment Auxiliary.This Ocean capable vessel would be capable of undertaking replenishment in sea state 6 and would have facilities for 50 trainees. This vessel would have a crew of 120 plus an optional 50 trainees and would cost IR£60m



    #A-18 Ocean Going Tug.Capable of Dive support Operations,150 tonne Bollard pull,and pollution control. The Ocean Going Tug would have a crew of 40 and would cost IR£25m



    #A-19 Hydrographic Survey Vessel.A Specialist shallow Draft ship also capable of pollution control and drug interdiction. The ship would be crewed by 30-40 and would cost in the region of IR£20m



    Nothing too fancy there,though the cost is a bit excessive,mostly because the Naval service has been neglected for so long,like everything else in this country. But the author ends with a quote from Richard Sharpe of Jane's Fighting Ships.
    "An efficient Navy with a tradition of loyal service to the national government is a priceless asset which once squandered, will be difficult to reclaim."
    Last edited by Goldie fish; 9 October 2007, 20:59.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  • #2
    What would the personnel implications for the NS be of this plan?
    .
    .
    .
    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

    Comment


    • #3
      Do the maths..and multiply by 4 at least..


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Could a similar workload be managed by a smaller number of standard flex type multirole vessels?
        Like 6 SF300s and 2 SF3000s and maybe a merchant support vessel?
        It would still leave the fleet under a lot of pressure FP wise but it would allow for a broader array of international missions maybe even gradually supplanting cod watching as the NS primary task?
        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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        • #5
          Okay your the boss lets have all of the above.....nice choices and quite practical.........no fantasies her.......build or buy ? If we signed up to Nato do you think we might get some body to pay for this lot.....
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • #6
            Do we have the facilities to build?
            I think there could be some local sourcing potential for the various modules but where in the republic would we get a military hull laid down?
            As with the MLHs EU funding would be available for anything that carries maritime surveillance equipment for FP...other than that we'd have to fork out ourselves unless we threw ourselves prostrate to the US or France..
            "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

            Comment


            • #7
              Buying the above ships "off the shelf" rather than designing them specifically for our purposes is a more economical alternative in the long run. The P50 class for example,a Canadian design(Guardian- Kvaerner Masa)built in the UK,supervised by Naval personell,was probably the most effective build of the NS so far, with the second ship being built ahead of schedule,and carrying out duties,some months before being formerly comissioned into service. Last time a NS veasel was built in Ireland, the cost doubled,and it was delivered almost 3 years after the Keel was laid. Most of this was due to industrial disputes,but the current tendering process means that such an event would hit the wallet of the Builder,not the state.
              There is a wealth of experienced dockyards in europe,who regularly build ships to naval specifications, and the current trend is to build the hull (quickly) in Japan or Korea,and build the superstructure and fitout in one of the european dockyards. The Research vessel pictured above was such a ship,as was the Irish Lights Tender Grainuaille.
              I would be inclined to think that the new european Defence Agency would speed up,or even assist in the aquisition of Naval vessels if required. All the designs mentioned above are built by EU members. Surely it would make economic sense,should the decision be made, to assist one member in buying military equipment of any sort,from another member state? Also fisheries protection is no longer the sole motivating force behind EU naval spending. Drugs surveillance,human trafficing,piracy and of course terrorism has also leapt into the EU list of priorities.


              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

              Comment


              • #8
                *stops swabbing deck*

                What about Harland & Wolff up North? I'd say a few small US Coast Guard-type vessels would do the job nicely, and maybe something larger for peacekeeping. What do you think? Guys? Hello?

                *looks around at the stunned silence*

                *resumes swabbing deck*
                If you have to do it, you always have to do it right. Either it makes a difference, or it’s good practice so that when it does make a difference, it gets done right.

                -Me.

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                • #9
                  H&W are now closed,70 of their workers are now doing contract ship repair in Cork Dockyard.
                  Eithne is quite comparable to USCG patrol vessels,with the exception of the CIWS.

                  You missed a spot...


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The only thing the USCG have that I think would be very useful for us is a rib with an inboard engine.... Saw one on Gallatin some years ago in Cork. Multirole is the way to go. The current ships are fine for their current tasks,but there is a huge drug smuggling business going on in irish waters that the NS has had little success in preventing. The "snowflake" logos on the Bridge wing of gallatin telling of her sucessful anti drug operations show the real difference.
                    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Click here for more details,and a useful interactive tool about the ANZAC design(MEKO 200)


                      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So if we buy who will pay?.....where do the crews come from and how long does it take to make this force operational.

                        The EU will hardly pay for all of it so do we have to sign up to a military alliance to offset the cost. Could we not take the south American model on board and buy second hand and then buy the more specialist roles off the shelf.

                        I'm not been facetious ...I like the idea ...I'm just curious to see the workings of the idea.Lets assume that the government did deciade that we required a force of the nature ( which we do!) how would the whole plan fall together ...Obviously there would be a need for increased base and repair facilities......Cold the NS take over the former VCD and use it as a repairfacility....what implications would there be for job creation and financial benefit to the surrounding area.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Speaking to an informed source this morning,apparently the powers that be have it in their mind that if the NS is being limited to an 8 ship navy,the Next retirement(L.E.Emer in about 5 years time) will be replaced by a much larger vessel,larger than anything ever seen in irish service.


                          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Goldie, I heard the same thing last year. The phrase 'steel is cheap' was mentioned.

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                            • #15
                              Would such a vessel then by its nature have a helideck?
                              .
                              .
                              .
                              With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                              Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

                              Comment

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