Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Five missing as trawler runs aground off Cork coast

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    On response times and not wishing to start one of those tiresome anti IRCG conversations..... But is 45 mins an okay time for a SAR heli launch , nearly 2 hrs to be on scene( albeit with bad luck from bowser issues and crap weather)
    45min call at nighttime is the International standard. This is to allow a single crew provide a 24hr operation with a rest period.
    It could of course be changed to a 15min callout time 24/7/365 but that would require a substantial increase in crew numbers to maintain a safe operation. This creates further problems as you now have more crews sharing the same amount of flying and hence you now have potential currency issues, its all a balancing act. Also bear in mind that only 30 mins of that 1hr 52mins is capable of being saved.. ie 15 min call and 53min transit will still be required (S61N) as maybe the additional planning time (in fact the planning time is likely to take longer as the reaction time is shorter).
    Its doable but the cost would be substantial for a 30 min saving on an operation which TBH it probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

    I know from an ISAF vet, the US medevac time in Afghanistan is 45-50 mins from call to casualty in roll 3 hospital , usually from a contact scenario.
    Completely different scenario. The ISAF medevac are on a continuous immediate call 24/7 and only operate a very limited distance from base. To quantify it for you a Blackhawk airborne within 10 mins, with a 5 min cas pickup time, to be back at the Role 3 hospital within 50mins from call has a MAX radius of action of 44nm. Thats about 1/2 the distance from Shannon to this scene in a machine travelling at about 60kts faster. Apples and Oranges.

    However, the biggest saving in time is now the introduction of the S92 which can transit at high speed (High or Low Level) and has full icing clearance. The transit time to this scene, assuming a 20kts headwind, would have been 35mins as opposed to 53mins plus with the high cruise speed at altitude and icing clearance planning is a lot easier so you could probably also take off the additional 6min planning time. Therefore in this case the change of machine alone would have saved about 24mins.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      In fairness hedgie she's grieving
      I know Dev, but lets face it the crews of the helicopters are people as well, they have to sleep at night and face their kids, the last thing those brave souls need is another distraction.

      Remember when that Shinner prick in another trawler incident commented on the fact that Naval divers wouldn't search for a body and the NS said the conditions were to dangerous and a civvie diver went searching and died.

      As a society are we only to ready to blame others ?
      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

      Comment


      • #63
        Not sure if you saw this video but its a classic case of not looking where you are going

        Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWHlFZEm3M

        Comment


        • #64
          Goldie not to be pedantic ( whilst being pedantic) see page 32 of the report "LE “Niamh” proceeding to recall crew and depart ex Cork Harbour ETA 15:30hrs" .....my point on a quick response by the Navy stand ( on scene less then four hours).

          Tadpole, thanks( for getting my point and being gentle ) and you nailed the point, like any rescue service, anything is possible with more or better resources, therefore as an island nation should we not have our airborne SAR assets on a shorter NTM, and pump in the resources accordingly. I would have thought if you had a problem at sea at night , you could have hoped for a SAR heli to be launched in less then 45 mins notwithstanding the different planning requirements etc, is there scope for one base to have a quicker response time ?

          Ultimately , in this case, the causes of the accident and the results are sadly clear for all to see and all the rescue services deserve nothing but praise for their efforts in a tough op. Everything else is academic.

          Interesting to read it in contrast to AAIU reports, presumably a "sister organisation" under the DoT , in the broadest terms, but seem to have a different way of doing it.

          RIP to the crew.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            In fairness hedgie she's grieving
            It seems to me that the families of Irish boat owners, where there have being a lose of life are quick off the mark to accuse or criticize others.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Jack Booted Man View Post
              Goldie not to be pedantic ( whilst being pedantic) see page 32 of the report "LE “Niamh” proceeding to recall crew and depart ex Cork Harbour ETA 15:30hrs" .....my point on a quick response by the Navy stand ( on scene less then four hours).

              Tadpole, thanks( for getting my point and being gentle ) and you nailed the point, like any rescue service, anything is possible with more or better resources, therefore as an island nation should we not have our airborne SAR assets on a shorter NTM, and pump in the resources accordingly. I would have thought if you had a problem at sea at night , you could have hoped for a SAR heli to be launched in less then 45 mins notwithstanding the different planning requirements etc, is there scope for one base to have a quicker response time ?

              Ultimately , in this case, the causes of the accident and the results are sadly clear for all to see and all the rescue services deserve nothing but praise for their efforts in a tough op. Everything else is academic.

              Interesting to read it in contrast to AAIU reports, presumably a "sister organisation" under the DoT , in the broadest terms, but seem to have a different way of doing it.

              RIP to the crew.
              See post 55

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Brian McGrath View Post
                Not sure if you saw this video but its a classic case of not looking where you are going

                Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFWHlFZEm3M
                That was the FV Andrea under a Dutch crew,OOW fined £1700 and costs for a nav offence at S'ton dt ct.The sail vessel clearly had RoW.Anyone spot the heavy stack smoke as she was put full astern.......clown. (info ala google).
                Very few prosecutions here for nav offences,last one that comes to mind was the Pices in WX.
                In relation to comments re responses,along with grief is a certain amount of denial.While the heli has revolutionised SAR it is not the complete panacea to every given event and there will always be a role for the trad surface assets.

                Comment


                • #68
                  JBM,
                  Anything is possible but it will cost money. The prob with changing one base to 15 min call 24/7 is which base? If for example you change Shannon (arguably the busiest base but lower vessel traffic then Waterford / Dublin) then any operation on the north west, north east, east, south east and some of the south coast will be dealt with just as quickly by the helicopters in those areas on 45min call as they would have a much shorter transit time. If you take any one base then the same problem exists if the incident is in the other three regions.
                  I think if you were to go down that route based on the relatively low level of actual SAR callouts during the 45 min period then you would be as well just go the whole hog with all 4 bases and multi task the aircraft for operations other then SAR such as HEMS and Air Ambulance. I dont think SAR on its own would warrant the increase in expense (Caveat: Not saying a single life has a monetary value but unfortunately thats how the world works).

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Does anyone know how long it took the helicopters to get in the Air? Are the crews in base or at home? Are there stats anywhere of helicopter response times? Seems like we get lots of other CG stats!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                      Does anyone know how long it took the helicopters to get in the Air? Are the crews in base or at home? Are there stats anywhere of helicopter response times? Seems like we get lots of other CG stats!
                      In this case:
                      Shannon - 59 mins
                      Waterford - 20 mins

                      See post 55 for contracted (and international standard) response times, CHC are contracted to meet this a high percentage of the time

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Who do these numbers come from? 14min is a long time in the water that time of year!!!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                          I know Dev, but lets face it the crews of the helicopters are people as well, they have to sleep at night and face their kids, the last thing those brave souls need is another distraction.

                          Remember when that Shinner prick in another trawler incident commented on the fact that Naval divers wouldn't search for a body and the NS said the conditions were to dangerous and a civvie diver went searching and died.

                          As a society are we only to ready to blame others ?
                          If you are referring to the Rising Sun off Wx in Dec 05 the civvy diver went down upon notice and with the consent of the CG(but not at their request).The conditions were ok and the NS divers had not been mobilised.The ruckus started when civvy divers were precluded from diving eventhough the NS divers were on site but could not dive as SOPS dictated a RoV survey which was on the blink and caused a delay and in the meantime the families were being told (not by NS)the NS was diving was ongoing.
                          More importance/effort appears to be tha case in searching for lost ones rather than staying alive first off.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            the Navy recalled a stand by crew and were there in less then 4 hrs.
                            Crew on shore leave while on patrol are on 4 hours sailing notice, a ship can sail with a reduced crew.I saw L.E. Aoife go to Sea the night of the Kowloon bridge with half a crew, in the days when there no mobile phones.

                            Naval Divers arrive by Road as they have to truck their gear by road. In fairness the response times from a Naval perspective were more than adequate.

                            The fact the CG had two aircraft available and had the standby on site well within its advertised arrival time and then to put a second machine on site regardless was top class.

                            The issue around fuelling shouldn't be regarded as a critical point as the second helo was on site well within the time frame allowable.

                            Given the survival time in the water was less than twenty minutes, and the fact it has been shown that none of the crew were wearing survival gear, that window of opertunity had well passed by the time either helo arrived where a rescue turned into a recovery.

                            Yeah the wife is grieving as co owner of the boat she will now be subject to criminal proceedings, plus the insurance may not pay out due to breaches in regulations and she is going to be held personally responsible for an civil actions.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Well done to the local volunteers and CG unit who were decorated recently arising from the Tit Bonhomme operation.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X