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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The UK thinking is that hydrographic survey and mine clearance go hand in hand. Interesting.

    I saw on this forum that the NSR had personnel who were marine qualified, could they not do it if they had similar ships..

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      The Military need to distance themselves from party political interactions and implied offers of financial support to Defence. The Defence duty and obligations to the security and Welfare of the State is where it is at , and should be the sole driver to equipping, training, and deployment of Defence assets. The PDF must continually submit it's budget requirements annually and PERSIST in all following years to attain the means to Defend the State. Buying large ticket items as placating gifts is counterproductive and causes new roles to pop up like weeds, which in turn snuff out many old skills that are still part of modern day defence. We cannot continue to renew ourselves based on political whims. Everybody knows the inventory for Combat units, Air Squadrons, Radar Surveillance, AA Defence, Naval Warfare, Coast Defence, Secondary Airfields, Harbours of Refuge etc. It is from that list you organise equipping and training. Lack of the right force projection, and lack of hours doing the job leads to dilution of ability and uncertainty in meeting adversarial situations.
      And part of that is providing a “safe and secure environment” for Department of Business, DPER, Enterprise Ireland etc.... and them knowing it (because it is taken for granted)

      Military provide military advise, DoD provide defence policy advice, Government make their decisions, decide on missions, taskings etc

      The Irish problem is DoD, DPER/Finance, successive governments and our electorate. We don’t however live in a military dictatorship.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        And part of that is providing a “safe and secure environment” for Department of Business, DPER, Enterprise Ireland etc.... and them knowing it (because it is taken for granted)

        Military provide military advise, DoD provide defence policy advice, Government make their decisions, decide on missions, taskings etc

        The Irish problem is DoD, DPER/Finance, successive governments and our electorate. We don’t however live in a military dictatorship.
        I agree with who does what. The problem is that the political leadership of the day has applied so many brakes to the PDF since the Gleeson Commission, that the manoeuvring units are threadbare and may be beyond recovery. Defence is not cheap but it does create employment and could support home industry for the production of everything that a PDF needs from uniforms, to furnishings, and many technical supports. In 1983 the radars being built for British Frigates at Henglo in Holland were fitted with computer units built in Galway. Overall the danger is, that those in power may think the PDF is fit for purpose, someone should tell them it is not. Right now there is a shortage of night and all weather training except in the Naval Service. What is our night flying surveillance hours etc., etc.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          I agree with who does what. The problem is that the political leadership of the day has applied so many brakes to the PDF since the Gleeson Commission
          Why?
          Because their is no demand from the masses to change it

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Why?
            Because their is no demand from the masses to change it
            You are barking up the wrong tree, there will never be demand from "the masses". Defence is an insurance policy and like all insurance policies in this country unless you are forced to pay it most would prefer not too. Even with legal obligations such as with car insurance many do not. It is the task of those involved in the defence community to highlight the needs year after year, not just throw up the hands and accept scraps. All governments since the founding of the State have seen a need for a defence force, even when money was much tighter than today. But now we are reaching a stage where those forces are becoming no longer viable for the primary military mission that they have been assigned (as per mission statement).

            There is to be a Commission on Defence and it is the obligation of everyone who knows about, and care about the defence of the country to shout as loud as they can. It is not the masses that get heard but those who shout so loud as to drown out the opposition. In the past weeks it has often been said that this Commission is a once in a generation chance, I disagree, it is the last chance for a functioning military defence force. Unless the decline is reversed the military aspect will disappear within a generation or less. So the time is now here to get out and shout, to set out the stall for a proper defence force no matter what it costs. If that is not done then we can never expect someone else to come and do it for us.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              You are barking up the wrong tree, there will never be demand from "the masses". Defence is an insurance policy and like all insurance policies in this country unless you are forced to pay it most would prefer not too. Even with legal obligations such as with car insurance many do not. It is the task of those involved in the defence community to highlight the needs year after year, not just throw up the hands and accept scraps. All governments since the founding of the State have seen a need for a defence force, even when money was much tighter than today. But now we are reaching a stage where those forces are becoming no longer viable for the primary military mission that they have been assigned (as per mission statement).

              There is to be a Commission on Defence and it is the obligation of everyone who knows about, and care about the defence of the country to shout as loud as they can. It is not the masses that get heard but those who shout so loud as to drown out the opposition. In the past weeks it has often been said that this Commission is a once in a generation chance, I disagree, it is the last chance for a functioning military defence force. Unless the decline is reversed the military aspect will disappear within a generation or less. So the time is now here to get out and shout, to set out the stall for a proper defence force no matter what it costs. If that is not done then we can never expect someone else to come and do it for us.
              Setting out the stall for a proper Defence Force is the critical factor and can only be done by those in charge of the Defence of the State. We can start off by being thankful that we are an island and the tanks won't come rolling in from unknown directions. We need a good National Surveillance system , by eye in coastal areas, by Radar for Air and Surface centrally monitored 24/7, MPA patrols by day and night, Naval coverage in the 200nm EEZ to cover all aspects of Surveillance. There should be at least one designated assault unit, maybe at Battn level with all supports, ready for intervention on order. There should be sufficient training to make all forces comfortable in the night environment in most weathers. A surface and air picture should be available daily 24/7. Critical factor is ISTAR and be aware.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                Setting out the stall for a proper Defence Force is the critical factor and can only be done by those in charge of the Defence of the State. We can start off by being thankful that we are an island and the tanks won't come rolling in from unknown directions. We need a good National Surveillance system , by eye in coastal areas, by Radar for Air and Surface centrally monitored 24/7, MPA patrols by day and night, Naval coverage in the 200nm EEZ to cover all aspects of Surveillance. There should be at least one designated assault unit, maybe at Battn level with all supports, ready for intervention on order. There should be sufficient training to make all forces comfortable in the night environment in most weathers. A surface and air picture should be available daily 24/7. Critical factor is ISTAR and be aware.
                We got rid of coastal artillery but how many coastal radar does the NS have? Yes everyone is required to have AIS but it is the ones who don't we should worry about. And as for knowing what is transiting under the waves, the less said the better!

                Comment


                • All coastal radar is locally managed now, by whoever operates the local port. Some ports don't even use Radar any more, trusting well placed AIS receivers.
                  Meanwhile travel up any of Europe's ports or waterways and regularly meet radar antennae as unobtrusive as navigation Buoys.
                  Like everything else, we choose not to be able to afford it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    All coastal radar is locally managed now, by whoever operates the local port. Some ports don't even use Radar any more, trusting well placed AIS receivers.
                    Meanwhile travel up any of Europe's ports or waterways and regularly meet radar antennae as unobtrusive as navigation Buoys.
                    Like everything else, we choose not to be able to afford it.
                    At a National non-military level we have signed and issued SI covering VTS. As pointed out we rely heavily on the mandatory carriage of AIS transponders on most things above 24metres in length. A typical VTS where instructions and guidance is issued to vessels in close geographical waters , consists of Radar, CCTV in harbours, VHF Radar, and of course AIS. The Agency which is suppose to police compliance with the system is the ICG. Countries like France have overlapping Radar coverage all along their Channel and Atlantic Coasts with manned monitoring stations. If you deviate incorrectly in Traffic Zones , you will be overflown by a French Plane and instructed to correct your position. Likewise Dover and the English Coast have radar coverage and close monitoring. We tend to see nothing outside the gate of Lord Fitzgerald's house.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      You are barking up the wrong tree, there will never be demand from "the masses". Defence is an insurance policy and like all insurance policies in this country unless you are forced to pay it most would prefer not too. Even with legal obligations such as with car insurance many do not. It is the task of those involved in the defence community to highlight the needs year after year, not just throw up the hands and accept scraps. All governments since the founding of the State have seen a need for a defence force, even when money was much tighter than today. But now we are reaching a stage where those forces are becoming no longer viable for the primary military mission that they have been assigned (as per mission statement).

                      There is to be a Commission on Defence and it is the obligation of everyone who knows about, and care about the defence of the country to shout as loud as they can. It is not the masses that get heard but those who shout so loud as to drown out the opposition. In the past weeks it has often been said that this Commission is a once in a generation chance, I disagree, it is the last chance for a functioning military defence force. Unless the decline is reversed the military aspect will disappear within a generation or less. So the time is now here to get out and shout, to set out the stall for a proper defence force no matter what it costs. If that is not done then we can never expect someone else to come and do it for us.
                      Unless there is demand from the masses (ie the electorate, the politicans’ bosses) the TOR of the CoD will be far from transformative. They will decide what the CoD Discusses. Be under no illusions they only reason there is to be a CoD is due to lobbying.

                      Like any report unless there is demands from the masses to implement it, the report will sit on a shelf (especially the case if it requires significant financial resources). The only other place that pressure can come from is our EU peers!

                      In this country if you don’t lobby you don’t get even if there is a clear need.

                      It may not be right but that is the way it is.



                      Take it from someone who has had to put pressure on politicians provide school places for a local secondary school, there is a clear need for it, vital service etc.
                      Last edited by DeV; 19 September 2020, 16:19.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Unless there is demand from the masses (ie the electorate, the politicans’ bosses) the TOR of the CoD will be far from transformative. They will decide what the CoD Discusses. Be under no illusions they only reason there is to be a CoD is due to lobbying.

                        Like any report unless there is demands from the masses to implement it, the report will sit on a shelf (especially the case if it requires significant financial resources). The only other place that pressure can come from is our EU peers!

                        In this country if you don’t lobby you don’t get even if there is a clear need.

                        It may not be right but that is the way it is.



                        Take it from someone who has had to put pressure on politicians provide school places for a local secondary school, there is a clear need for it, vital service etc.
                        During the deliberations of the Pre- Committee on Defence, the submissions by those tasked with carrying out the Defence Mission, must be crystal clear on the needs of all Defence units in order to implement the Mission effectively. The Status Quo plus pay rises will not of itself build an effective Defence Force. We must start acquiring the range of modern weapons systems, Naval, Army, and Air Corps, to fulfill the Mission. We must see, hear, and deal with all threats which implies an island surveillance system , in all dimensions, for a start. Coupled with target acquisition and weapon delivery systems by land ,Sea, and Air.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          During the deliberations of the Pre- Committee on Defence, the submissions by those tasked with carrying out the Defence Mission, must be crystal clear on the needs of all Defence units in order to implement the Mission effectively. The Status Quo plus pay rises will not of itself build an effective Defence Force. We must start acquiring the range of modern weapons systems, Naval, Army, and Air Corps, to fulfill the Mission. We must see, hear, and deal with all threats which implies an island surveillance system , in all dimensions, for a start. Coupled with target acquisition and weapon delivery systems by land ,Sea, and Air.
                          Well all know what the DF needs to efficiently succeed at its (current) missions

                          Depends on the ToR of the Commission that mission and the strategic intend my change

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            Well all know what the DF needs to efficiently succeed at its (current) missions

                            Depends on the ToR of the Commission that mission and the strategic intend my change
                            The Mission must always have the right tools and skills. When you go tilling ground you bring Fork, Spade, grubber, or tractor and plough for big jobs. Every job has a set of tools, our tool rack has many empty slots. All pointing to potential failure to achieve the Mission.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Well all know what the DF needs to efficiently succeed at its (current) missions

                              Depends on the ToR of the Commission that mission and the strategic intend my change
                              Key will not be so much the ToRs but rather the Chairperson and make-up of the commission, every set of ToRs can be interpreted differently bu different people. And how do we remember commissions, by the name of the Chairperson! It is that person who will in the end have to sell the results to the government and the wider public. So depending on who is selected we will early-on be able to predict the outcome.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                Key will not be so much the ToRs but rather the Chairperson and make-up of the commission, every set of ToRs can be interpreted differently bu different people. And how do we remember commissions, by the name of the Chairperson! It is that person who will in the end have to sell the results to the government and the wider public. So depending on who is selected we will early-on be able to predict the outcome.
                                Watch the Officer Clubs talks they are vital

                                The Programme for Government says a lot but it is the ToR that says what the Commission can actually look into:

                                Defence
                                Irish people take great pride in our Permanent Defence Forces and the men and women who serve this country with pride and distinction. Since first deploying, the Defence Forces have the longest unbroken record of overseas service with the United Nations of any country, during this time the nature of conflict has presented new challenges. We will continue this proud record and ensure that the Defence Forces are suitably resourced to partake in such service recognising the new challenges facing the global community.
                                Peacekeeping and humanitarian efforts are at the core of the international reputation of the Defence Forces. With climate change becoming an increasing security threat across the world and a significant
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                                factor in the incidences of war, famine, forced migration and disaster management, we recognise the vital role the Defence Forces have in addressing these challenges.
                                Commission on the Defence Forces
                                In order to meet the medium and longer term defence requirements of the State an independent Commission will be established. This Commission will undertake a comprehensive review which will include the following matters:
                                • Arrangements for the effective defence of the country at land and sea.
                                • Structures for governance, joint command and control structures.
                                • The brigade structure.
                                • Pay and allowances and composition of the Defence Forces.
                                • Recruitment. retention and career progression.
                                • The contribution of the Reserve Defence Forces, including its legislation and Defence Forces
                                regulations governing it and whether specialists from the RDF should be able to serve overseas.
                                The Commission will contain a wide variety of expertise such as management, human resources, academia, law, public service, as well as members with external military expertise from countries similar in size to Ireland and also from states that like Ireland are non-aligned militarily.
                                We will consult widely on the terms of reference for the Commission which will be established by end of 2020 with a mandate to report within twelve months.
                                The outcome of this review will remain grounded in a policy of active military neutrality and participative multilateralism through the United Nations and European Union.
                                Upon completion of the Commissions work, a permanent pay review body will be established, reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. All recommendations by the Commission or the successor body and their implementation must be consistent with national public sector wage policy.
                                Overseas operations and international co-operation
                                The Government will ensure that all overseas operations will be carried out in line with our position of military neutrality and will be subject to a triple lock of UN, Government and Dáil Eireann approval.
                                Ireland’s participation in PESCO projects will be maintained on an ‘opt-in’ basis, with contributions being entirely voluntary. Any projects undertaken within PESCO will be approved by Cabinet and Dáil Éireann.
                                The Government will not partake in projects which are not compatible with our policy of active military neutrality and non-membership of military alliances.
                                Within the context of the European Peace Facility Ireland will not be part of decision making or funding for lethal force weapons for non-peacekeeping purposes.
                                Additional actions
                                We will:
                                • Support the establishment of centres for retired members of the Defence Forces.
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                                • Develop a new Institute for Peace Support and Leadership Training in the Curragh.
                                • Ensure that all enlisted members of the Defence Forces have the same access to healthcare
                                as officers do currently.
                                • Amend the Organisation of Working Time Act bringing the Defence Forces within the scope of
                                its provisions.

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