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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

    That's not really accurate.
    The NZ issue was they have too much southern ocean to patrol, the same crew shortages as us, and crew priorities with their ANZAC frigate, new AOR, MRV and OPVs. the 2 other vessels were fine for their intended role, but 2 too many. They will be replaced with OPV types, we have been told.
    No different to the Peacocks, (similar in size) fine for inshore work, but the Peacocks usefulness on the west coast diminished many moons ago. They will have plenty to do on the Irish sea.
    Never mind Dublin, Arklow has about a half KM of quayside with easy access to the Irish sea, and possibly half the cost of living in Dublin. Wicklow too. Same story. May need some dredging. All the former naval officers working for Waterways Ireland can look after that. Their commercial usefulness has diminished in recent years so I'm sure the Wicklow local authority would be delighted to pass the quayside, and associated derelict buildings to the DoD if necessary.
    While being accurate is always expected adding in throwaway unproven remarks about navies including our own is vexatious. The quoted RNZN reasons include speed and weather restrictions and ability to handle Southern Ocean weather. They also didn't like sharing the vessels with large civilian investigative staffs. Waterways Ireland have nothing to do with anything other than the Shannon, Royal and Grand canals. The Peacocks were NEVER useless and have given brilliant service of 37 years with us and some few years in Hong Kong. Wherever they might be berthed, they need shore power, water, disposal facilities, and a dedicated unshared berthage to allow freedom of action. They are 55m x 9mx 2.9m with a 375 tonnage and range of 5,500km.

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    • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
      It is possible and frankly a good option. If so the two 55m Lake Class vessels in question Pukaki and Rotoiti would be ideal for the Irish Sea. This is the kind of waters and role they were designed for.

      They are in good nick, have modern kit, good sea keeping for their class of vessel and would be far more comfortable than the Peacocks. They were the only Protector Class vessels not to have serious issues on introduction to service.

      The fact that they only saw active service in the RNZN for around 4 years and were lightly used for the last 5 years have nothing to do with the ships themselves. They work fine. It is just that a government in New Zealand 15 years ago bought two too many of a smaller patrol vessel type and two less larger, longer range and more costly vessels at the time due to a unrealistic funding cap, when the official Maritime Forces policy report argued to the contrary.

      I would grab them if I was in the INS. Require just a crew of 20 to operate (though always went to sea in the RNZN with at least 22), though can embark 36 as quite often other Govt agencies like Customs, Fisheries, Police and other specialists would go on them, or the extra berths were for trainees. There is also years of life left in them, they have been looked after, and they will be comparatively cheap to buy and to operate.

      If they are looking at that and snap them up - our loss and your gain

      .....

      Range was the issue with the IPV's not seakeeping. They are only disposing of two that were not required in fact should never have been built. We needed a mix of 6 patrol vessels - either 3 or 4 OPV's and/or 2 or 3 IPV's, plus a MRV that could do long range presence and deterrence patrols into the Pacific when it was not tasked with Sealift duties as a back up capability to the Frigates (In there general patrol role and not war-fighting) - which never happened due to an arbitrary political budget cap.

      Range matters to the RNZN probably more than any other small Navy. The Realm of New Zealand EEZ that the RNZN is responsible for is the 5th largest in the world at 7.97m km2. For context the space it takes up on the map is twice the size of the continental EU. The distances are massive. Will Ireland need all its vessels to have the range of of coping with distances well inside the Arctic circle through to the almost the equator? I think a range of 3000nm and an endurance of 7-10 days is entirely suitable for what will be a complementary EEZ tasking around the Irish Coast to the larger OPV's, an area nearly a 20th of the size of the RONZ and be able to handle 95% of the weather and sea state conditions that nature will throw at it.

      And the the extreme conditions in the Southern Ocean where there is the greatest patrol needs, require an icebelt anyway. A 23m wave was recorded a couple of years back and wave heights of 14 to 15m metres are not uncommon down in the roaring forties and furious fifties during storms. Plus the winter weathering needs to be on another level there as well - the Antarctica is the harshest maritime environment in the world. In fact OPV's the size of the current Irish and RNZN vessels are marginal in the very big southern storms anyway. That is why the USCG who know a thing or two about ships handling severe sea states are building their next Vard 7 designs to 110m.

      Given that the INS are looking for a couple of circa 50m vessels for fisheries enforcement and physical sea presence for deterrence a simple quick solution due to a change in maritime circumstances because of Brexit you need boats in the water not a fleet all of super OPV's designed to handle every single eventuality.
      I'm merely recycling what the above stated. Their information is considered a trusted source. I'm unsure which "throwaway" remarks you are referring. I never said Useless, I said the P40s usefulness have diminished on the Atlantic coast. They are almost 40 year old vessels. One of which has spent almost 2 years tied to the quay wall. They had their time, that time has passed. Crew accommodation is inappropriate for long range patrolling in heavy seas. The Peacock class were 62m LOA x 10m beam x 2.7m draft displacing 712 tons, with a range of 4600KM.
      My Waterways comment was meant in jest. I'm pleased you saw fit to correct me.
      Last edited by na grohmiti; 7 April 2021, 09:48.
      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
      German 2: Private? I am a general!
      German 1: That is the bad news.

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      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

        This lad has already sailed it, in his mind though. Not sure where the fuel is coming from...
        The 3000nm was the contracted design range as part of the RFI. The reality is that they are capable of much more. Here is the "Review" that NZ Skipper magazine did on their delivery to RNZN service, mentioning range.

        https://skipper.co.nz/old-archives/I...s%20p14-18.pdf

        So fuel is not the real issue for this particular delivery voyage. The range issues are more to do with Southern Ocean patrols where persistence is required over many days. The real issue it is who will pay for the beer at the USN messes we are going to visit on the voyage to its new home.

        Though they will be really boring and ship lift both of them - of course if you acquire them.
        Last edited by Anzac; 7 April 2021, 10:21.

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        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

          While being accurate is always expected adding in throwaway unproven remarks about navies including our own is vexatious. ..... They also didn't like sharing the vessels with large civilian investigative staffs.
          Not quite accurate. Only ever 4 customs or fisheries guys were ever present on board at one time. The RNZN has had uniformed Fisheries, Customs, Immigration, Bio Security, Maritime Police, personnel on their ships on a regular basis for 50 years - OK one or two personality clashes over the years but generally good professional relationships.

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          • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            Not quite accurate. Only ever 4 customs or fisheries guys were ever present on board at one time. The RNZN has had uniformed Fisheries, Customs, Immigration, Bio Security, Maritime Police, personnel on their ships on a regular basis for 50 years - OK one or two personality clashes over the years but generally good professional relationships.
            Accept your correction on that as you are a antipodean source. If travelling on their keels , do they really have a range of close to 3000 (5000k) nm. The Peacocks came via Suez from HK and we joined around Suez area for the run to the UK., with a bit of gunnery etc. Sorry just saw your post on range. If that is kosher then the only consideration is habitability and general crew endurance, for noise, heat, air conditioning, and ship accelerations in adverse weather. Did you sail on them or know those that did. There was a rumour that up to 16 non-naval personnel were on board.
            Last edited by ancientmariner; 7 April 2021, 11:53.

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            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

              If that is kosher then the only consideration is habitability and general crew endurance, for noise, heat, air conditioning, and ship accelerations in adverse weather. Did you sail on them or know those that did. There was a rumour that up to 16 non-naval personnel were on board.
              They are well regarded in the senior service and were a huge step up from the Moa Class boats which they replaced in terms of liveability and seakeeping. Only been on them alongside myself but know personally a former CO and a CPO who served on them and they rated them. There is berthing for 36 when trainees are included and no doubt they have had quite a few extra's onboard beyond the usual small fisheries and customs teams. I do know that the Navy have taken a few Members of Parliament on them from time to time on familiarisations, which would test the patience of the crews. To patrol the Irish Sea as these vessels maybe asked to do they will be fine and that includes the northern part of the Celtic Sea.

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              • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                They are well regarded in the senior service and were a huge step up from the Moa Class boats which they replaced in terms of liveability and seakeeping. Only been on them alongside myself but know personally a former CO and a CPO who served on them and they rated them. There is berthing for 36 when trainees are included and no doubt they have had quite a few extra's onboard beyond the usual small fisheries and customs teams. I do know that the Navy have taken a few Members of Parliament on them from time to time on familiarisations, which would test the patience of the crews. To patrol the Irish Sea as these vessels maybe asked to do they will be fine and that includes the northern part of the Celtic Sea.
                OK, OK, I'm buying!! How much??

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