CPV Replacement

[ibenji]

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that we are have to resort to purchasing several second hand done-deal vessels to carry out the required role. Its not as if no one was expecting brexit. This is disgraceful lack of preparation and our navy deserves better. Do we expect any better from the dept of defence our indeed the Government

[spider]

2 x Scimitar class patrol vessels? (They returned from Gib to the U.K. earlier this year)

They were originally designed and built in the early 90s for use by the Royal Marines on OP LAWFUL, to counter PIRA ambitions to shot down a military helicopter departing RAF Aldergrove, from a boat, on Lough Neagh. I was never on them but my brother was; I think beyond a basic galley / heads and seating for passengers theres no accommodation. And I think I read somewhere that their engines were becoming problematic. Whilst they are a useful asset, I don't think they'd be suitable for the type of tasking being talked about by the Irish Government.

[ropebag]

They're only little boats, they'd probably fit in a C-17...

[Laners]

Naah. Stick both on a heavy lifter and head west. Time it right and you are leaving in southern hemisphere autumn to arrive northern hemisphere in spring.

How much would that cost ?

[Anzac]

Naah. Stick both on a heavy lifter and head west. Time it right and you are leaving in southern hemisphere autumn to arrive northern hemisphere in spring.

That is far too sensible. And not much fun either ...

[na grohmiti]

Naah. Stick both on a heavy lifter and head west. Time it right and you are leaving in southern hemisphere autumn to arrive northern hemisphere in spring.

[Anzac]

Your shop is a bit far away. Good offer.

It is a bit far away but getting them back to Ireland on the delivery cruise would be a brilliant journey.

I have plotted the course. Taking both vessels. A Kiwi-Irish mixed crew or each take one vessel each and sailing from Auckland and heading north to Rarotonga for a couple of nights at Wilson's Beach Bar, then up to Pearl and the bars in Honolulu, across to Coronado NB San Diego, then down to Panama and then through the Panama Canal to Mayport Fl, then north to with a stop in Boston on the way then onto Halifax NS, and finally across the last stretch to Cork.

That would be the highlight of any Naval career and be the stuff of legends which it sadly probably will be

[Laners]

Very astute summation. Range would be an improvement on the CPV's who had about 1600 nm at max speed. Your shop is a bit far away. Good offer.

Indeed , the delivery voyage alone would take about two months to complete .

[ancientmariner]

Only if they get a new President, the Greens and many others would not go with us selling "weapons" to such a government. Best would be strip them of anything useful and scrap the hulls.

Ask the UK to scrap the CPV's defensively and maintain HPV as a training asset for live training.

[ancientmariner]

Range was the issue with the IPV's not seakeeping. They are only disposing of two that were not required in fact should never have been built. We needed a mix of 6 patrol vessels - either 3 or 4 OPV's and/or 2 or 3 IPV's, plus a MRV that could do long range presence and deterrence patrols into the Pacific when it was not tasked with Sealift duties as a back up capability to the Frigates (In there general patrol role and not war-fighting) - which never happened due to an arbitrary political budget cap.

Range matters to the RNZN probably more than any other small Navy. The Realm of New Zealand EEZ that the RNZN is responsible for is the 5th largest in the world at 7.97m km2. For context the space it takes up on the map is twice the size of the continental EU. The distances are massive. Will Ireland need all its vessels to have the range of of coping with distances well inside the Arctic circle through to the almost the equator? I think a range of 3000nm and an endurance of 7-10 days is entirely suitable for what will be a complementary EEZ tasking around the Irish Coast to the larger OPV's, an area nearly a 20th of the size of the RONZ and be able to handle 95% of the weather and sea state conditions that nature will throw at it.

And the the extreme conditions in the Southern Ocean where there is the greatest patrol needs, require an icebelt anyway. A 23m wave was recorded a couple of years back and wave heights of 14 to 15m metres are not uncommon down in the roaring forties and furious fifties during storms. Plus the winter weathering needs to be on another level there as well - the Antarctica is the harshest maritime environment in the world. In fact OPV's the size of the current Irish and RNZN vessels are marginal in the very big southern storms anyway. That is why the USCG who know a thing or two about ships handling severe sea states are building their next Vard 7 designs to 110m.

Given that the INS are looking for a couple of circa 50m vessels for fisheries enforcement and physical sea presence for deterrence a simple quick solution due to a change in maritime circumstances because of Brexit you need boats in the water not a fleet all of super OPV's designed to handle every single eventuality.

Very astute summation. Range would be an improvement on the CPV's who had about 1600 nm at max speed. Your shop is a bit far away. Good offer.

[EUFighter]

Speaking of which I wonder if the Philippines might be interested in them?

Only if they get a new President, the Greens and many others would not go with us selling "weapons" to such a government. Best would be strip them of anything useful and scrap the hulls.

[EUFighter]

There might be a Danish option, AFAIK the Danes still have some(3) of their Flyvefisken class laid-up. The Flyvefisken platform is one of the most interesting that has been produced with its highly flexible set of modules. Their ability not only to do surface patrol work but also be equipped for sub-surface is IMHO a great plus point. As for cost I would reckon that we could get each boat for a symbolic 1-Euro each as long as we pay for the re-activation and refurbishment to be done with Danish companies.

[Anzac]

Given that New Zealand are disposing of these ships because they are not suitable for service in their waters due to sea states I would think the same would apply in not using them here , even the Irish Sea can kick up pretty good to the point that ferry services are cancelled , and if they are operating on the east coast, it's UK fishing boats mostly from NI that they will be dealing with , hardly seems practical to have two patrol vessels just for that ,. They will have to be suitable to operate further afield than the Irish Sea corridor .

Range was the issue with the IPV's not seakeeping. They are only disposing of two that were not required in fact should never have been built. We needed a mix of 6 patrol vessels - either 3 or 4 OPV's and/or 2 or 3 IPV's, plus a MRV that could do long range presence and deterrence patrols into the Pacific when it was not tasked with Sealift duties as a back up capability to the Frigates (In there general patrol role and not war-fighting) - which never happened due to an arbitrary political budget cap.

Range matters to the RNZN probably more than any other small Navy. The Realm of New Zealand EEZ that the RNZN is responsible for is the 5th largest in the world at 7.97m km2. For context the space it takes up on the map is twice the size of the continental EU. The distances are massive. Will Ireland need all its vessels to have the range of of coping with distances well inside the Arctic circle through to the almost the equator? I think a range of 3000nm and an endurance of 7-10 days is entirely suitable for what will be a complementary EEZ tasking around the Irish Coast to the larger OPV's, an area nearly a 20th of the size of the RONZ and be able to handle 95% of the weather and sea state conditions that nature will throw at it.

And the the extreme conditions in the Southern Ocean where there is the greatest patrol needs, require an icebelt anyway. A 23m wave was recorded a couple of years back and wave heights of 14 to 15m metres are not uncommon down in the roaring forties and furious fifties during storms. Plus the winter weathering needs to be on another level there as well - the Antarctica is the harshest maritime environment in the world. In fact OPV's the size of the current Irish and RNZN vessels are marginal in the very big southern storms anyway. That is why the USCG who know a thing or two about ships handling severe sea states are building their next Vard 7 designs to 110m.

Given that the INS are looking for a couple of circa 50m vessels for fisheries enforcement and physical sea presence for deterrence a simple quick solution due to a change in maritime circumstances because of Brexit you need boats in the water not a fleet all of super OPV's designed to handle every single eventuality.

[ancientmariner]

The vessels handle fairly well and I have heard no issues with respect to berthing, slow speed manoeuvring. I have never been on one underway just when alongside. No bow thrusters, no dropdown like in the Peacocks but a fairly typical 4kts loiter, controllable pitch propellers. Not sure about running clutched in outboards off the back. Engine time is just 5000 hours for Pukaki and 6000 for Rotoiti. A couple of 7.4m RHIB's which do a lot of the donkey work. My guess is that they would have a book value of between 5 to 10m Euro.

Sorry confused phraseology by me. With our CMS I used to berth using one engine to halve the speed of approach. I would use the outer engine and propeller with the inboard engine stopped. They were fixed pitch propellers so your CPP's would make it more viable.

[Laners]

Given that New Zealand are disposing of these ships because they are not suitable for service in their waters due to sea staes I would think the same would apply in not using them here , even the Irish Sea can kick up pretty good to the point that ferry services are cancelled , and if they are operating on the east coast, it's UK fishing boats mostly from NI that they will be dealing with , hardly seems practical to have two patrol vessels just for that ,. They will have to be suitable to operate further afield than the Irish Sea corridor .