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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by apod View Post

    I get the sarcasm but it's not really the same thing is it seeing as Aircrew tend to stay inside their Aircraft for the most part. Heli crew backseaters excepted perhaps.Who wear Green flight suits with DPM over the top when needed.

    Good effort though.Made me chuckle.Really.
    The flights suits used to be blue when the new uniforms came in...
    Vol_58_No_2_Mar_1998.pdf (dfmagazine.ie)
    I understand they went green again once the GASU complained they were being mistaken for Air Corps...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bilgerat
    replied
    Not sure if recruits will instantly get the NSV DPM, or start off with the greens, can tell you though there is no land tactics part of recruits for the navy anymore

    Leave a comment:


  • apod
    replied
    Originally posted by Laners View Post
    Maybe the Aer Corps will go with something in grey when their turn comes, to blend with the grey Irish skies .
    I get the sarcasm but it's not really the same thing is it seeing as Aircrew tend to stay inside their Aircraft for the most part. Heli crew backseaters excepted perhaps.Who wear Green flight suits with DPM over the top when needed.

    Good effort though.Made me chuckle.Really.

    Leave a comment:


  • apod
    replied
    Ok gents. In these days of echo chambers it seems like you are only seeing what you want to see and hearing what you want to hear and that this is turning into a circular debate with people keeping coming back to not wanting to wear an Army uniform. Despite the fact that NO ONE has advocated that.I'll say that again for the hard of hearing.NO ONE is advocating the NS wears Army Uniform.That clear enough??

    Navy people should 100% be recognisible as Navy.But designing and spending(wasting) money on a Camo that is Fcuk all use for blending with anything is a sham. Smacks of every Branch of the Russian Military and Police having their own patterns just because they can. FFS even the Beirut Fire service wears a Camo pattern!!

    Plenty of Navies wear plain coloured Uniforms and they are not mistaken for soldiers are they not?? No one confuses the RN with the British Army as an example.Actually I would posit that wearing a weird Camo pattern just confuses people and they will ask why the Army is wearing a new pattern.

    Just as an aside will NS recruits be issued with IP-DPM for the Land Tactics part of their training or will the colours Irish Countryside change to blend with the colours of the new rig??

    Leave a comment:


  • Laners
    replied
    Maybe the Aer Corps will go with something in grey when their turn comes, to blend with the grey Irish skies .

    Leave a comment:


  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by apod View Post
    Ah yeah.It does.Experience speaks volumes. Not saying your opinion is invalid though I think you are trying to say mine is.

    Oh FFS. THAT's the justification??OPS of the coast of Africa.Really?? Will the ship change colour and go all west african Jungle foliage like or East African Sand colour?? Really. I have serve in West Africa.Trust me. NS DPM would stick out like the dogs danglies in the Jungle. Exactly you are ignoring the Grey blends with grey argument as it blows the justification for a bespoke DPM pattern out of the water.

    No that's just Naive.Sorry.


    Wasting Taxpayers money that's why. Justifying somethings existence based on BS(International best practice,Clearly not)



    I 100% agree with you.You have to look the part and that does affect Morale.I just think it could have been done better without the need for a pattern that blends with nothing if we are honest.

    Can you honestly say that the sailors pictured in the article below look "Un-military" or unprofessional?? (Just one example BTW)

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/...wear-test.html
    There is a saying about being proud to wear THE uniform. Pride does infer a certain amount of vanity but that is fine as it is a feeder to diligence, flying the Flag, and not letting the Side down. No matter what Naval Duty you are on you should wear an obviously Naval Uniform and not be a soldier for the moment or day. It is NOT right that sailors in off base or ship duties find themselves in a non-issue uniform for military convenience. It leads over time to shame caused by assuming you are in the wrong place for sailors and you must Camo your identity. Talking about ships changing colour, HMS Tamar, has been deployed to the Far East with the first DAZZLE coated paint scheme in Black, White, and Grey since 1939-1945. I would finally hypostasize that ARMY uniform is NOT NAVAL uniform.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bilgerat
    replied
    Originally posted by apod View Post
    Ah yeah.It does.Experience speaks volumes. Not saying your opinion is invalid though I think you are trying to say mine is.


    Oh FFS. THAT's the justification??OPS of the coast of Africa.Really?? Will the ship change colour and go all west african Jungle foliage like or East African Sand colour?? Really. I have serve in West Africa.Trust me. NS DPM would stick out like the dogs danglies in the Jungle. Exactly you are ignoring the Grey blends with grey argument as it blows the justification for a bespoke DPM pattern out of the water.

    No that's just Naive.Sorry.

    Wasting Taxpayers money that's why. Justifying somethings existence based on BS(International best practice,Clearly not)


    I 100% agree with you.You have to look the part and that does affect Morale.I just think it could have been done better without the need for a pattern that blends with nothing if we are honest.

    Can you honestly say that the sailors pictured in the article below look "Un-military" or unprofessional?? (Just one example BTW)

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/...wear-test.html
    I never once said your opinion was invalid. I said it one opinion. With equal weight to mine, regardless of how old you are or how long youve been in.
    Dont want to take the ship to a jungle, but the horn of Africa, maritime ops.. A man can dream right?

    Yes, I think the single colour uniforms with baseball caps look bad, dont look military and wouldnt be hard to find someone not in the military who wears something similar. Your one on the left looks like a dockyard worker/customs worker, and the fella on the right looks like hed give me a tour of a safari.
    Last edited by Bilgerat; 3 May 2021, 11:49.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bilgerat
    replied
    "This professional uniform is easily recognisable as synonymous with the Defence Forces while maintaining our unique maritime identity." - From the booklet of the NSV DPM.
    You're dead right about wanting seperate identity. Thats a good thing!

    Leave a comment:


  • apod
    replied

    Ive been in for a few years not as many as yourself, but the amount of time either us are in, or what you know about uniforms, makes no difference to the validity of either of our opinions.
    Ah yeah.It does.Experience speaks volumes. Not saying your opinion is invalid though I think you are trying to say mine is.

    Ignoring the "blending in with ship" argument, which I can see some merit with it being a DPM pattern, if we find ourselves off the coast of africa (hopefully) in the future.
    Oh FFS. THAT's the justification??OPS of the coast of Africa.Really?? Will the ship change colour and go all west african Jungle foliage like or East African Sand colour?? Really. I have serve in West Africa.Trust me. NS DPM would stick out like the dogs danglies in the Jungle. Exactly you are ignoring the Grey blends with grey argument as it blows the justification for a bespoke DPM pattern out of the water.
    Not even going to acknowledge "NS have an inferiority complex and hate looking like the Army", I think thats just ridiculous.
    No that's just Naive.Sorry.

    About it being a vanity project, I definitely think it has to do with vanity, and why is that a bad thing?
    Wasting Taxpayers money that's why. Justifying somethings existence based on BS(International best practice,Clearly not)

    I mentioned before how when we were in recruits that we all hated changing from DPM to GDR as it felt like we werent part of a military anymore, you even appreciated how that can affect morale. With this DPM navy pattern, its far better in that regard.
    It is just personal opinion whether you like it or not, but you cant deny it definitely looks more military, which I do think is very important, especially for those wearing it.
    I for one (clearly) like the DPM navy patterns of other navies, like the aussies, and am happy that we have our own now, that looks even better than theirs.
    I 100% agree with you.You have to look the part and that does affect Morale.I just think it could have been done better without the need for a pattern that blends with nothing if we are honest.

    Can you honestly say that the sailors pictured in the article below look "Un-military" or unprofessional?? (Just one example BTW)

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/...wear-test.html

    Leave a comment:


  • apod
    replied
    Seriously GH. That's your argument?? You have drunk the NS Cool aid too it seems.

    Where have I said the previous NS rig (GDR) was going to be replaced with an "Army" uniform.Or advocated for it. Nowhere. Why?? Because the NS was already wearing IP-DPM for certain land based tasks. This drove SOME,not ALL mind you, in the NS mad as they wanted their separate Identity at all costs.That is FACT. You can argue that's not the case till the ships come in (if they went out) but the dolphins in the ocean know that the truth.

    As for the argument about Grey uniforms not blending with the superstructure of the ship because of "fifty shades". C'mon. Really?? It's too early for jokes. Why is IP-DPM multiple colours? Because their are Multiple colours in Nature. Of course a ship being Man made doesn't have the same multiples,especially Naval vessels which tend to be predominantly Grey with black here and there.But mostly Grey. So that argument holds no water. Pardon the pun.

    Never mind the USN? One of the largest Navies in the World and along with the RN they pretty much set the standard to reach. Really?? I thought this uniform was being Driven by "International best Practice". I know that was said in a briefing note to the General staff. In fact the project team BS's the General staff as they gave examples of the USN "Blueberry" uniform and the Aussie NDPCU as two such examples without mentioning that the "blueberries"were being phased out. As for the USN style of operations. Deck hands are deck hands the world over.Do the USN do things THAT much differently at the deck level??

    Yes.The new rig is an Operational uniform and for the last time I have no issue with that. The design and features are pretty nifty.So serious Kudos for that and I believe the NS has stolen a march on the rest of the DF with those.Those features I believe will carry over into the next generation of DF Field dress so that's good. I just believe the pattern is a massive own goal driven by inter service rivalry which opens the NS up for ridicule and I can't stand that.

    Again.Well wear to those who like it.Sorry If I am the being the elephant in the room but I can express my opinion right??

    PS: The Air corps wear IP-DPM with their flight suits as dictated by the operational task and as allowed under Admin Instruction A9.Plenty of Pics out there of them doing so alongside the pictures of the NS wearing DF DPM.
    Last edited by apod; 3 May 2021, 10:30.

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  • Bilgerat
    replied
    Originally posted by apod View Post

    I don't want to come across as patronising so I am genuinely treading carefully here.So please forgive me if this comes across that way.

    I am gonna go out on a limb here and assume by the tenor of your posts that you are not long in the DF. If I got that wrong I apologise. I have been in Uniform for close to thirty years now and I have worn the old OG Working Dress (Which the recently retired NS uniform was based off) and Combats,the first Issue of DPMs and everything since. And at risk of ID'ing myself I know a fair bit about other Militaries Uniforms. I also know DF politics,spin and frankly, Bullshit.

    This introduction of the NSV DPM Rig is a Trojan Horse. Spun by some elements in the NS as being introduced on Operational and safety grounds but PRIMARILY(when you dispense with the BS) because some people in the NS have an inferiority complex and hate looking like the Army. In short it's a vanity project driven by Inter service politics. And that is "Simple as". I can say that Matter of fact because that's what it is.I have been around long enough to recognise that and to call it for what it is. Sorry if that offends but there we have it.

    As for Blending in.Again.You have missed my point. Plain Grey blends perfectly with the deck of the ship.Why the need for multiple colours?? No foliage on a ships deck from what I can see. Look at the USN and where they are going design wise for their kit. They got rid of the Blueberries and replaced them with a Camo pattern designed for Land warfare (NWU 3) as a stop gap, but they are moving to Plain Navy and plain Tan variants for use onboard. Perfectly smart and practical. I know some Navies are still using Naval "Camos" but lets be honest they look gank.

    So. In short.I genuinely wish you "well wear" as they say. I am glad that the NS has got something that lifts morale and takes the sailors minds off the myriad of other issues facing the NS.If only for a moment even. Enjoy the Seaweed Camo.
    Ive been in for a few years not as many as yourself, but the amount of time either us are in, or what you know about uniforms, makes no difference to the validity of either of our opinions.
    Ignoring the "blending in with ship" argument, which I can see some merit with it being a DPM pattern, if we find ourselves off the coast of africa (hopefully) in the future.
    Not even going to acknowledge "NS have an inferiority complex and hate looking like the Army", I think thats just ridiculous.
    About it being a vanity project, I definitely think it has to do with vanity, and why is that a bad thing? I mentioned before how when we were in recruits that we all hated changing from DPM to GDR as it felt like we werent part of a military anymore, you even appreciated how that can affect morale. With this DPM navy pattern, its far better in that regard.
    It is just personal opinion whether you like it or not, but you cant deny it definitely looks more military, which I do think is very important, especially for those wearing it.
    I for one (clearly) like the DPM navy patterns of other navies, like the aussies, and am happy that we have our own now, that looks even better than theirs.

    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Why are you saying the Navy hate looking like the army when the previous uniform didn't look like the army? That comment doesn't make sense. The Naval Service were never going to change from a naval pattern uniform to an army pattern uniform, no more than the pilot of a PC9 was suddenly going to start wearing DPM raingear instead of his flight suit.
    Surely your knowledge of uniform should also give you an appreciation for the NS wanting to maintain it's own unique identity, yet still identify as being part of the Irish DF?
    Plain grey does not blend in with the deck of a ship. You are doing fieldcraft long enough to realise there are many shade and colours caused by features and structures on board ship the same as plain green didn't work in a grassy field, even though we all know grass is green, right?

    Never mind what the USN do, their style of operations bear no similarity to what we do in Ireland.

    The following are facts:
    It is an operational uniform.
    It is also workwear, designed from buttons to thread to be suitable for wearing on the unique operational environment aboard ship.
    This is not "Spin".

    You are a lone voice of dissent, and I respect that. But you'll find nobody working on Haulbowline agrees with you. Even the most cynical will say "shedloads better than the old stuff".

    Leave a comment:


  • apod
    replied
    Originally posted by Bilgerat View Post
    I should have said pattern, not design, thats what I meant in my reply.
    The only people ive seen commenting bad about it is a train driver, and a couple of anti-vaccine "patriots" who dont wear the flag on their shoulder every day for work. And yourself. So 4 people, who feel the need to voice their opinion on it, which is fine I suppose, but theres plenty of opinions which sway the other way, just decide not to voice it. Just the fact that you say it as though your opinion is so matter-of-fact, I felt the need to be a voice in the other direction. The french and canadian uniform looks like muck to me, "simple as".
    Why does it matter that it blends with the ship? Surely that would be useful, no? I think the camo is cool, you seem to hate it.
    "Ah.The crux of the matter and the REAL reason for it's introduction." - Is this a problem? I dont see it as a problem at all. Its even in the booklet we got while getting it issued to us.
    I don't want to come across as patronising so I am genuinely treading carefully here.So please forgive me if this comes across that way.

    I am gonna go out on a limb here and assume by the tenor of your posts that you are not long in the DF. If I got that wrong I apologise. I have been in Uniform for close to thirty years now and I have worn the old OG Working Dress (Which the recently retired NS uniform was based off) and Combats,the first Issue of DPMs and everything since. And at risk of ID'ing myself I know a fair bit about other Militaries Uniforms. I also know DF politics,spin and frankly, Bullshit.

    This introduction of the NSV DPM Rig is a Trojan Horse. Spun by some elements in the NS as being introduced on Operational and safety grounds but PRIMARILY(when you dispense with the BS) because some people in the NS have an inferiority complex and hate looking like the Army. In short it's a vanity project driven by Inter service politics. And that is "Simple as". I can say that Matter of fact because that's what it is.I have been around long enough to recognise that and to call it for what it is. Sorry if that offends but there we have it.

    As for Blending in.Again.You have missed my point. Plain Grey blends perfectly with the deck of the ship.Why the need for multiple colours?? No foliage on a ships deck from what I can see. Look at the USN and where they are going design wise for their kit. They got rid of the Blueberries and replaced them with a Camo pattern designed for Land warfare (NWU 3) as a stop gap, but they are moving to Plain Navy and plain Tan variants for use onboard. Perfectly smart and practical. I know some Navies are still using Naval "Camos" but lets be honest they look gank.

    So. In short.I genuinely wish you "well wear" as they say. I am glad that the NS has got something that lifts morale and takes the sailors minds off the myriad of other issues facing the NS.If only for a moment even. Enjoy the Seaweed Camo.

    Leave a comment:


  • ancientmariner
    replied
    In 1961 when I joined the Navy working dress was an ad hoc arrangement made up mostly of old ARMY brown denim coats and pants with loose pinned brass buttons, much used by the children in the Construction Corps. Then came the advance to a working dress SHIRT BLUE, which was worn with the blue hairy trousers. Then came the addition of a trousers, to sort of match the shirt ,but totally unsuitable for cold winter mornings in the muster parade-augmented with wooly pully under the shirt and long johns with stern trap door. J.C. anything is better then a non-uniform outfit. I think the DPM unified cloth is the absolute answer to being in uniform and clearly answers two questions. The persons wearing it are in Defence Force Service and they are in the NAVY. Well done all round--splendid!!
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 3 May 2021, 09:22.

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  • Bilgerat
    replied
    I should have said pattern, not design, thats what I meant in my reply.
    The only people ive seen commenting bad about it is a train driver, and a couple of anti-vaccine "patriots" who dont wear the flag on their shoulder every day for work. And yourself. So 4 people, who feel the need to voice their opinion on it, which is fine I suppose, but theres plenty of opinions which sway the other way, just decide not to voice it. Just the fact that you say it as though your opinion is so matter-of-fact, I felt the need to be a voice in the other direction. The french and canadian uniform looks like muck to me, "simple as".
    Why does it matter that it blends with the ship? Surely that would be useful, no? I think the camo is cool, you seem to hate it.
    "Ah.The crux of the matter and the REAL reason for it's introduction." - Is this a problem? I dont see it as a problem at all. Its even in the booklet we got while getting it issued to us.

    Leave a comment:

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