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  • #31
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Boats are commanded by a Coxn, usually a junior rate. Small patrol craft can be commanded either by senior rates, or depending on its role, a Junior officer.
    For example the Archers of which we speak are commanded usually by a Lieutenant, but he is also the OC of that University Royal Naval Unit. There is a whole load of other URNU bullshit that they also get up to that is irrelevant, needless to say they are designed to groom university students into Her majestys naval officers, and are crewed accordingly.
    If you want the future NSR vessel to act as a mothership for Rhibs, then an officer would be expected to command it, and be familiar with navigation planning, and use of marine comms in a coastal environment. Most of which can be covered by a yachtsmaster course.
    Would that allow them to undertake useful roles on an OPV?
    The theory element from a quick google looks doable in a NSR context but is the practical?

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    • #32
      I dont know, a mowag has a crew of 3 and takes about 8 weeks of training depending on what part of the crew you are. Its basically driving but on a larger scale and can cause massive damage if you hit anything.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
        Copied from other thread

        Their is nothing stopping NSR lads from getting courses in the Naval BTC. Or is there, the topic of training is over on the NSR commissioning thread buts more like a bashing of NSR officers. As said in the other thread why dont they do a yacht masters course?. I must look it up but on both threads it seems to suggest that there must be a particular rank that drives a boat and a rank that commands it and a rank that controls it all. So what would they be, if someone could draw a comparison to a mowag it might help us understand.
        Not intended in any way by me to be bashing. But my question stands - is there jobs that a non-professionally qualified NSR Officer could do on a NS OPV - I don’t know the answer hence the question (I do know that there is no way they could get the sea time or qualifications to get a NWC (unless they are working in role as a civvy).

        Ok I’ll give it to you in MOWAGS (@truckdriver, help me out if I’m incorrect on anything) - why are there no AR MOWAG drivers?:

        Assuming you are a min Pte 3*, pass ITs, manual handling, medical (including eyesight etc), you have a full civvy car licence and are at least 21 years of age

        You have to do a min of 4 different driver modules of at least 5 weeks plus a specific number of hours practical driving experience on some vehicles before you will be considered for the APC Crewmans Cse (which is a number of weeks long)

        There is nothing to stop reservists doing it if they qualify, get a place on the course and are available

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        • #34
          Can we get a thread split/merge please?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Would that allow them to undertake useful roles on an OPV?
            The theory element from a quick google looks doable in a NSR context but is the practical?
            The argument and discussion is not offering solutions. Newly commissioned reserve officers could be trained as I outlined. There are Offshore courses available in Power boating, RHIB handling, and at Yachtmaster level, the latter would meet requirements for eventual mentoring as a Seaman Watch Officer.
            All boats up to crewed launches are I/c of a Coxswain . The launches at 50ft would be supervised by the Regular cadre for day to day minding but could be skippered by a senior NCO or Officer who passed a power boat handling course. Within a year, a reserve unit should be able to take a crewed launch to sea. The NSR must be utilised to build their confidence and professional worth. It would be worth while reading how our neighbours train their Naval reserve.
            Last edited by ancientmariner; 29 June 2020, 20:09.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Not intended in any way by me to be bashing. But my question stands - is there jobs that a non-professionally qualified NSR Officer could do on a NS OPV - I don’t know the answer hence the question (I do know that there is no way they could get the sea time or qualifications to get a NWC (unless they are working in role as a civvy).

              Ok I’ll give it to you in MOWAGS (@truckdriver, help me out if I’m incorrect on anything) - why are there no AR MOWAG drivers?:

              Assuming you are a min Pte 3*, pass ITs, manual handling, medical (including eyesight etc), you have a full civvy car licence and are at least 21 years of age

              You have to do a min of 4 different driver modules of at least 5 weeks plus a specific number of hours practical driving experience on some vehicles before you will be considered for the APC Crewmans Cse (which is a number of weeks long)

              There is nothing to stop reservists doing it if they qualify, get a place on the course and are available
              I know how the equals work for a mowag. What I dont is how a yacht masters is going to train the NSR to operate their boats as some have suggested ie hoardings, Rhino weapons platforms etc. It cant be as simple as a civi yacht master.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                The argument and discussion is not offering solutions. Newly commissioned reserve officers could be trained as I outlined. There are Offshore courses available in Power boating, RHIB handling, and at Yachtmaster level, the latter would meet requirements for eventual mentoring as a Seaman Watch Officer.
                All boats up to crewed launches are I/c of a Coxswain . The launches at 50ft would be supervised by the Regular cadre for day to day minding but could be skippered by a senior NCO or Officer who passed a power boat handling course. Within a year, a reserve unit should be able to take a crewed launch to sea. The NSR must be utilised to build their confidence and professional worth. It would be worth while reading how our neighbours train their Naval reserve.
                Ok that’s for launch ops

                What about on OPVs? Is there tasks that they could do unsupervised without a massive amount of courses, sea time, mentoring, etc that is reasonable feasible?

                I’m genuinely interested, because the NSR seamen and L/Seamen are going to sea on OPVs (not sure about more senior NCOs)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  With no disrespect intended, none. Not in the current system. The only alternative is to recruit NSR officers directly from the small pool of professional mariners working in merchant marine who still reside in Ireland.
                  You will however increase that pool if you look for people capable of handling a small vessel in open waters, ie, those who work in the fishing or maritime towing or Workboat area. But that would require an appropriate vessel for them to command.
                  So launches?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by batterysgt View Post
                    I know how the equals work for a mowag. What I dont is how a yacht masters is going to train the NSR to operate their boats as some have suggested ie hoardings, Rhino weapons platforms etc. It cant be as simple as a civi yacht master.
                    You need to learn the difference between boats and ships then.
                    Boat=the small thing that usually hangs from a crane on a ship. Normal crew of 2.
                    Ship=big grey think with accommodation for 50 or so, all ranks, carries a number of boats for boarding
                    Launch= Bigger than a boat but smaller than a ship.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      Ok that’s for launch ops

                      What about on OPVs? Is there tasks that they could do unsupervised without a massive amount of courses, sea time, mentoring, etc that is reasonable feasible?

                      I’m genuinely interested, because the NSR seamen and L/Seamen are going to sea on OPVs (not sure about more senior NCOs)
                      If you remove mentoring and some kinds of craft handling from the experience chain of sea going personnel they will arrive on board like press ganged civilians and must be supervised for their own safety. it's a chicken and egg conundrum.
                      Most navies use small craft such as Archers to train young officers and seamen in craft handling. They get assigned to larger craft eventually to learn routines and systems at sea. Any NSR's I took to sea were well looked after by crew and by end of voyage fitted in usefully. Officers are a particular problem and must be trained by a graduated process to be a bridge watchkeeper. Given the will and inputs it is doable.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        If you remove mentoring and some kinds of craft handling from the experience chain of sea going personnel they will arrive on board like press ganged civilians and must be supervised for their own safety. it's a chicken and egg conundrum.
                        Most navies use small craft such as Archers to train young officers and seamen in craft handling. They get assigned to larger craft eventually to learn routines and systems at sea. Any NSR's I took to sea were well looked after by crew and by end of voyage fitted in usefully. Officers are a particular problem and must be trained by a graduated process to be a bridge watchkeeper. Given the will and inputs it is doable.
                        How would you propose to bring an NSR officer up to bridge watchkeeper with two weeks time they have for FTT training and a few weekends per year?

                        The difference isn't with will and ability - it's time.

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                        • #42
                          apart from watchkeeping and small boat handling, are NSR personnel involved in engineering functions?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                            apart from watchkeeping and small boat handling, are NSR personnel involved in engineering functions?
                            No.
                            All NSR are part of seamans branch.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                              How would you propose to bring an NSR officer up to bridge watchkeeper with two weeks time they have for FTT training and a few weekends per year?

                              The difference isn't with will and ability - it's time.
                              It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.
                                Most NSR officers have already completed, at their own cost and time, yacht-master cert, only for the boats in which they practised to be taken from them, and left rot in Haulbowline.
                                Would you leave your doctor stand watch aboard L.E. Eithne if you were it's captain?

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