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  • OPV Replacement

    At the moment the P50 class is undergoing a mid-life refit, while this will given some more years of service by the end of this decade they will be 30yrs old and needing a replacement. One of the PESCO projects which is growing in size is the European Patrol Corvette which now included Italy, France, Greece and Spain with Portugal and Bulgaria have also expressed interest in joining. It looks likely that this program could involve building 20+ similar vessels with up to 30 being easily in reach. At present the EPC is thought to be around 3000t with a length of 110-115m. The vessel design will be modular to give it the flexibility to undertake a large varity of missions with different systems and payloads.

    The suggested configurations of the EPC are:
    • A limited warship optimized for surface warfare and able to counter airborne attacks as well as undertake anti-submarine missions.
    • A limited warship for lengthy missions (10,000 nautical miles at 14 knots) that can conduct surface warfare missions.
    • An offshore patrol vessel in various configurations.


    It is expected that the first version, the Italian would enter service in 2027 and the first French vessel in 2030. This would put the building program right in the timeframe for the P50 replacement. While many may contend that we can wait and see what designs finally emerge I would caution. The designs will be driven by those who were involved at the early design stages when many of the key decisions are taken. So if the EPC could be a potential replacement for the P50s we would need to get involved early/now. Being involved does not mean that we have committed to buying the final result, but gives a chance to influence the final design.

  • #2
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    At the moment the P50 class is undergoing a mid-life refit, while this will given some more years of service by the end of this decade they will be 30yrs old and needing a replacement. One of the PESCO projects which is growing in size is the European Patrol Corvette which now included Italy, France, Greece and Spain with Portugal and Bulgaria have also expressed interest in joining. It looks likely that this program could involve building 20+ similar vessels with up to 30 being easily in reach. At present the EPC is thought to be around 3000t with a length of 110-115m. The vessel design will be modular to give it the flexibility to undertake a large varity of missions with different systems and payloads.

    The suggested configurations of the EPC are:
    • A limited warship optimized for surface warfare and able to counter airborne attacks as well as undertake anti-submarine missions.
    • A limited warship for lengthy missions (10,000 nautical miles at 14 knots) that can conduct surface warfare missions.
    • An offshore patrol vessel in various configurations.


    It is expected that the first version, the Italian would enter service in 2027 and the first French vessel in 2030. This would put the building program right in the timeframe for the P50 replacement. While many may contend that we can wait and see what designs finally emerge I would caution. The designs will be driven by those who were involved at the early design stages when many of the key decisions are taken. So if the EPC could be a potential replacement for the P50s we would need to get involved early/now. Being involved does not mean that we have committed to buying the final result, but gives a chance to influence the final design.
    We are members of the PESCO cooperation Group but our problem seems to be about getting involved mean-fully. I agree that at least two replacement vessels should meet EPC standards. PESCO have a training and certification Agency with which we should already be involved. Globally Defence and Security is based on joint enterprise and interflow of information and common SOP's.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      We are members of the PESCO cooperation Group but our problem seems to be about getting involved mean-fully. I agree that at least two replacement vessels should meet EPC standards. PESCO have a training and certification Agency with which we should already be involved. Globally Defence and Security is based on joint enterprise and interflow of information and common SOP's.
      It is not just PESCO but also our engagement in the EDA is lacking apart from photo-ops for politicians! While it is good to be a member of a club there comes a time when the other members will start to question just why are we there? It is like being a member of a golf club, you never take part in competitions, you never go golfing with other members and yet we turn up to the AGM and always have something to say! We want to be seen to be part of the club but in reality we don't own a single golf club and have only every played "crazy golf".

      Comment


      • #4
        At the moment the P50 class is undergoing a mid-life refit, while this will given some more years of service by the end of this decade they will be 30yrs old and needing a replacement.
        We're there...the P60s are the next in class and will be in service 10 - 15 years after the P50s so reaiistically its that class we need to look at replacing.

        The P 60s despite outward looks are a huge step up from the P50s....bit like comparing Deirdre to Aisling
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          We're there...the P60s are the next in class and will be in service 10 - 15 years after the P50s so reaiistically its that class we need to look at replacing.

          The P 60s despite outward looks are a huge step up from the P50s....bit like comparing Deirdre to Aisling
          If our policy is to maintain at all times an 8 /9 ship navy then we should immediately plan to replace 1 Flagship (MRV?) and 2 CPV's (MCMetc.?) within three years. Then by 2035 we should be planning to replace 2 P50's. Then in 2035-2039 we should carry out half life refits, and upgrades on dated equipments. on 4 P60's. All would be much easier to achieve if we had our own dock operational. If we had space P31 could also be maintained as a training unit given the possibility of the return to flight decks on the MRV. At all costs we must avoid reactive planning winding up with vessels that impose unhelpful role changes for the Navy and personnel.

          Comment


          • #6
            Normally our vessels are design for an active service life of 30 years, but as we all know that when "push comes to shove" they can last longer. But if we have planned properly and funded the fleet adequately then 30 years should be the target life. So the interval between the P50 and P60 fleet replacement could vary from 10 year to as much as 20 years.

            But if we do in future stick to the 30 year limit then building a replacement for LÉ Róisín should start in 2027 which would mean a design start around 2025 if not earlier.

            Vessel Commisioned Refit 30 Year Service 35 Year Service
            LÉ Róisín (P51) 1999 2019 2029 2034
            LÉ Niamh (P52) 2001 2020 2031 2036
            LÉ Samuel Beckett (P61) 2014 2034 2044 2049
            LÉ James Joyce (P62) 2015 2035 2045 2050
            LÉ William Butler Yeats (P63) 2016 2036 2046 2051
            LÉ George Bernard Shaw (P64) 2019 2039 2049 2054
            Last edited by EUFighter; 15 August 2020, 13:51.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              Normally our vessels are design for an active service life of 30 years, but as we all know that when "push comes to shove" they can last longer. But if we have planned properly and funded the fleet adequately then 30 years should be the target life. So the interval between the P50 and P60 fleet replacement could vary from 10 year to as much as 20 years.

              But if we do in future stick to the 30 year limit then building a replacement for LÉ Róisín should start in 2027 which would mean a design start around 2025 if not earlier.

              Vessel Commisioned Refit 30 Year Service 35 Year Service
              LÉ Róisín (P51) 1999 2019 2029 2034
              LÉ Niamh (P52) 2001 2020 2031 2036
              LÉ Samuel Beckett (P61) 2014 2034 2044 2049
              LÉ James Joyce (P62) 2015 2035 2045 2050
              LÉ William Butler Yeats (P63) 2016 2036 2046 2051
              LÉ George Bernard Shaw (P64) 2019 2039 2049 2054
              Admire the IT skills. Those are the dates but we should strive to get a minimum of 35years to get value out of a well executed half-life refit. Because of that looming workload, planning for prolonged use of Ireland's only operational Graving Dock needs to be booked and maybe augmented?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                Normally our vessels are design for an active service life of 30 years, but as we all know that when "push comes to shove" they can last longer. But if we have planned properly and funded the fleet adequately then 30 years should be the target life. So the interval between the P50 and P60 fleet replacement could vary from 10 year to as much as 20 years.

                But if we do in future stick to the 30 year limit then building a replacement for LÉ Róisín should start in 2027 which would mean a design start around 2025 if not earlier.

                Vessel Commisioned Refit 30 Year Service 35 Year Service
                LÉ Róisín (P51) 1999 2019 2029 2034
                LÉ Niamh (P52) 2001 2020 2031 2036
                LÉ Samuel Beckett (P61) 2014 2034 2044 2049
                LÉ James Joyce (P62) 2015 2035 2045 2050
                LÉ William Butler Yeats (P63) 2016 2036 2046 2051
                LÉ George Bernard Shaw (P64) 2019 2039 2049 2054
                Fcuk me... given your figures I'll be dead and buried by the time the last of the replacements come about
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wonder if, in 35 years time we will still be looking at a fleet that expands by 1 ship every 20 years?

                  1947-1969- 3 ships.
                  (1969- 1971- 1 ship)
                  1971- 1975- 4 ships
                  1975- 1982 - 6 ships
                  1982- 1999- 7 ships
                  1999- 2017- 8 ships
                  2017- date 9 ships.

                  Using this rule of thumb by 2054 the fleet might be as large as 15 ships...
                  German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                  German 2: Private? I am a general!
                  German 1: That is the bad news.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Fcuk me... given your figures I'll be dead and buried by the time the last of the replacements come about
                    Well if there was ever a reason to speed up the replacement program there it is!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      I wonder if, in 35 years time we will still be looking at a fleet that expands by 1 ship every 20 years?

                      1947-1969- 3 ships.
                      (1969- 1971- 1 ship)
                      1971- 1975- 4 ships
                      1975- 1982 - 6 ships
                      1982- 1999- 7 ships
                      1999- 2017- 8 ships
                      2017- date 9 ships.

                      Using this rule of thumb by 2054 the fleet might be as large as 15 ships...
                      Or maybe it’s hit the top of the Bell Curve?
                      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                        Or maybe it’s hit the top of the Bell Curve?
                        The exercise is to show the sustained financial , technical, and support measures necessary to maintain an indate operational fleet. Due to paucity in numbers back in 1961 we could only manage one ship on permanent commission out of three. We could bring another out for a show piece period as all ships could be brought to short notice, as layed up ships had CO, Eng. Coxn, CERA, and CSTO. on board. I remember 02 was painted stem to stern internally by the Coxn (Flor) on his own when we joined to take her out.
                        As the Fleet grows, and needs replacements, needs crews, training, technical skill sets, it must not be beset by tardy decisions as in the 70's. Capabilities and trades lost are grindingly difficult to get back . We have a long way to go to recover lost ground.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                          Or maybe it’s hit the top of the Bell Curve?
                          There is no bell curve, but the picture is quite different.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          (I have removed those in refit or "operational reserve")
                          We had a period of expansion just after we joined the EEC and then the fleet size remained fairly constant for the most of 40 years, now we have a steep decline. Once the two P50 class complete their refits we will be back to a fleet of 6.
                          The remaining 3 vessels: LÉ Eithne, LÉ Orla & LÉ Ciara all reached 35yrs in 2019 and should be allowed to retire. It is not as it the two Peacocks have received anywhere near the refits that their sister boats have in Philippine service!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You included Setanta as an active vessel? I don't remember her leaving the basin much after 1980.
                            German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                            German 2: Private? I am a general!
                            German 1: That is the bad news.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              You included Setanta as an active vessel? I don't remember her leaving the basin much after 1980.
                              I take your point and I was hesitant putting a lighthouse tender in anyway.
                              Click image for larger version

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