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  • Privatisation of the NS?

    Just spent a while reading alot of the posts. Conclusion : either everyone is on magic mushrooms or we are talking about a different navy.

    Bottomline---- all we will ever have will be 8 patrol ships. When Orla, Ciara and Eithne go to the Spanish scrap merchants, we will only be operating Lloyds Register ships as no warships [actual naval vessels capable of naval actions ] will ever be provided by the gladhanders feeding off their begging bowls from EU.

    So instead of everyone rambling on like Father Dougal, I propose to transfer the alleged 'navy' to the Department of Marine etc which can subcontract its operational running to the likes of DML.

    The money saved can then be used to properly equip the army for the first time since its creation.

    After all who needs a navy? The way you lot go on, you would think we lived on an island!!!! Isn't that right Ted????
    Sarsfield

  • #2
    You'd get a better response if you didn't insult the rest of the board members.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

    Comment


    • #3
      Is it not yourself sarsfield that promoted the aquisition of Frigates,destroyers etc? Are you being Ironic?
      Do you have an opinion?


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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      • #4
        Yes I was been ironic. Just pure frustration that it would appear that no politician seems to grasp the legal necessity to operate and properly equip / train the defence forces. This is required under international law. Ireland would require 4 frigates, 8 multirole opvs [in other words corvettes ], 4 mcm vessels, 1 fleet replenishment vessel and a vessel capable of supporting a UN BATTALION in the field. This would require substantial investment over the next 10 years. Naval Reserve should also be upgraded with relevant equipment such as the Blohm & Voss 38m Fast Patrol Craft.

        The only way we can constructively help the NS is to begin a properly worded standard letter mailed to every single TD.

        One thing that the Celtic Tiger has changed is peoples refusal to accept second rate services and infrastructure, so why should they accept a badly equipped fishery protection service which the politicians call a navy.
        Sarsfield

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        • #5
          Newsflash: The government don't poke around this site too often, so getting frustrated at us won't get you anywhere. If you want to discuss something do it in a civil manner.
          "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

          Comment


          • #6
            Kills me as it does i have to agree with sarsfield...in that the powers that be have only ever paid lip service to the notion of ever possessing a full blown navy. But in saying that people must remember that all we have is a naval Service which in fact is notionally and on paper a branch of the Army and all descisions regarding the funding and operation of this service are made at higher level with in the army.

            The only time the service had a real say in this was when Commodore Moloney was assistant chief of staff but this was a missed oppertunity.

            The scottish effictively operate a similar FP role to the Naval service at fraction of the cost but then again they also have the RN on close call. If we were in fact to remove the NS from the control of the army its military role would dissappear and the force itself would never be replaced as happened in the 1920s.

            No amount of letter writing would ever alter the fact that the NS will never be what it should be.
            There is no point in continually bemoaning the facts of what the service is and living in the fantasy of what it could be is an utter sham.

            The Army gets primary funding because of the high profile of its overseas contribution..I am not debating this ...it is a fact. The AC is almost a private air taxi service with no credible role in the DF ..without the proper equipment.

            the naval serice is a token force but please stop belittling what the people who operate this force do. It is not their fault that the service is under funded and at least the service has gained enough credence that it may never be depleted to the condition it was in in 1970.

            Credible soloutions are always welcome but dreaming of frigates, corvettes and MCM vessels are a waste of time.
            If at this point in time anybody realistically believes that we can afford to operate these hypothetical forces please tell me why the dutch ...the...Belgians and the UK are all streamling tehir naval forces. Truth is nobody can afford to operate large scale navies any more and the manpower required is simply not available..

            In 1980 the defence forces under took to upscale to 15,900 from 13,370 whn infact the whole period of the eighties recruitemnt was stagnant. If the resources had been poued into the DF and the NS in particular that were spent on say Air Lingus we would probably be in a position to argue the cases for the upgrades to the desired ships today but this didn't happen and as a result the NS is at its current level.

            There has been more than one occassion in the recent history of the state that it was under consideration to disband the service....if privatisation of certain roles came under scrutiny...again in the future I firmly believe that this option would be considered again. Be careful of what you wish for as you just might get it.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • #7
              hpt,

              As an interested observer, I would be interested to know what future you forsee for the NS ?

              E.g.:-
              - Will it stay at an 8-ship level ?
              - Will a troop transport ship will replace Eithne ? etc. etc.

              What would you see as a realistic expansion of the NS ?


              You say that letter writing is pointless, which is probably the case, so .....

              What would it take to change politicians view of the NS ?

              (or is it MORE important to change 'joe publics' view first ?)


              Regards,
              Silver.
              Silver
              Sqdn. Ldr
              Last edited by Silver; 26 November 2004, 06:07.
              IRISH AIR CORPS - Serving the Nation.

              Comment


              • #8
                to be thruth ful and honest at this time Ican't answer that question as I am very tired and ned to do some more associsted reading .give me a couple of days and I will put forward my realistic vision of the nvy backed up with some historical eveidence.

                Paul
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • #9
                  legal necessity to operate and properly equip / train the defence forces. This is required under international law
                  Where?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Quote:
                    "legal necessity to operate and properly equip / train the defence forces. This is required under international law"

                    At the risk of upsetting people and sounding like a broken record INTERNATIONAL LAW DOES NOT EXIST. It is a figment, imaginary, made up, a lie, bullshit, not true, a fabrication, a story,an aspiration, a dream, an idea, an alternative reality, an expression, a phrase, a misquote, misrepresented, LOAD OF CRAP.

                    There are many, many arguments for properly trained, equipped, manned & funded all arms defence forces. International law is not one, because it does not exist.
                    Take these men and women for your example.
                    Like them, remember that posterity can only
                    be for the free; that freedom is the sure
                    possession of those who have the
                    courage to defend it.
                    ***************
                    Liberty is being free from the things we don't like in order to be slaves of the things we do like.
                    ***************
                    If you're not ready to die for it, put the word freedom out of your vocabulary.

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                    • #11
                      but i thought under the terms of declared neutrality under the hague or some such we or other nations were obliged to be in a position to defend their neutral stance ..ie have a force capable of at least making a token effort to resist those intending to defy neutrality??
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The power of the Defence Forces to defend the state does not lie in the hands of the soldiers on the ground, but their mothers who would pester any invading army until they handed the place back to us. I'm sure there's some treaty or other that covers this, and if there isn't I'm sure the government would be more than happy to sign us up to it to avoid any of that actual messy, vote losing fighting.

                        Cynicism, the lowest form of wit? Well, just so long as it's a form of wit I'll be happy...

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                        • #13
                          Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, not cynicism.
                          "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Hague and Geneva Conventions state clearly that any sovereign state that declares itself militarily neutral or independent of military alliances must provide the means to safeguard that stated neutrality. No aggressor is to be able to utilise the said neutrality by air, land or sea; the state must be able to provide credible deterence. Sweden, Finland, Austria and Switzerland have adhered to this. Needless to say the Republic of Ireland has failed woefully in this regard, despite signing all relevant treaties and conventions.

                            I had no intention to insult fellow board users in my original post. However, it seems futile for like minded people to constantly argue and debate the future of the NS. I strongly believe that we should initiate a letter writing campaign to both the press and politicians to raise the pressing issues facing the NS. NS personnel are of a high quality and dedicated to doing their jobs in a very arduous environment but both politicans and the majority of the media do little to help.

                            'We want eight and we won't wait' should be the cry. RACO has already stated in its report that the NS would require significantly more platforms to effectively carry out their required duties than this but faced with the governments decision to stick with eight we should be calling for those platforms to be large, capable,multipurpose warships. :tri:
                            Sarsfield

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FMolloy
                              Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, not cynicism.
                              Ahh, you are correct, I do apologise.

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