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  • Undersea cables

    tampering with our undersea cables is increasingly becoming an issue. What kind of assets would we need to try and prevent that? ASW for sure, but most likely subs?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Graylion View Post
    tampering with our undersea cables is increasingly becoming an issue. What kind of assets would we need to try and prevent that? ASW for sure, but most likely subs?
    At present we need to be in a position to detect subs. That in itself would be a huge deterrent. Having our own subs would not serve much purpose in that most of the cables in our Atlantic waters are well below crush depth for most manned submarines, and those in the Irish sea are in waters too shallow for subs to operate effectively. (Porcupine basin is 3km deep).
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Graylion View Post
      tampering with our undersea cables is increasingly becoming an issue. What kind of assets would we need to try and prevent that? ASW for sure, but most likely subs?
      ASW sonar and possibly UUVs (so you can visually inspect, possibly a job for the owner but when you detect something you want to see what is going on).

      question is what do you do? Report to UN drop something along the lines of diver scaring charges?

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      • #4
        At the end of the day though can’t do anything without vessels in the water
        Last edited by DeV; 22 October 2021, 20:34.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          At the end of the day though can’t do anything with vessels in the water
          ? did you mean without? Not getting what you are saying

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          • #6
            If you encounter a vessel submerged within the EEZ, there isn't much you an do about it, other than make it clear you know he's there.
            Then write a strongly worded letter to the UNSC.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Graylion View Post

              ? did you mean without? Not getting what you are saying
              Fixed

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              • #8
                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                If you encounter a vessel submerged within the EEZ, there isn't much you an do about it, other than make it clear you know he's there.
                Then write a strongly worded letter to the UNSC.
                All an EEZ gives is exclusive economic rights within 200 miles of international waters adjacent to a nations coastline and sovereign territorial 12 mile limit. As long as that Boomer is not involved in any direct economic activity such as fishing, seabed harvesting or mining it has freedom of navigation rights. NATO subs have for decades patrolled underwater cables in the North Atlantic. It is a major part of what they do to sustain international commerce and communications.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                  tampering with our undersea cables is increasingly becoming an issue. What kind of assets would we need to try and prevent that? ASW for sure, but most likely subs?
                  How many Trans-Atlantic underwater cables does Ireland actually 100% own by itself?

                  The reality is that NATO (mainly France, UK and the US) does that trans-Atlantic SLOC security job for you. If you are concerned join NATO.

                  If you seek ASW capabilities NATO will want to know what your intended end use is. It will not want a country going rouge and interfering in legitimate security operations such underwater SLOC security and demand coordination.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                    How many Trans-Atlantic underwater cables does Ireland actually 100% own by itself?

                    The reality is that NATO (mainly France, UK and the US) does that trans-Atlantic SLOC security job for you. If you are concerned join NATO.

                    If you seek ASW capabilities NATO will want to know what your intended end use is. It will not want a country going rouge and interfering in legitimate security operations such underwater SLOC security and demand coordination.
                    There are 17 comms submarine cables plus 1 for power connecting Ireland to elsewhere.

                    we are also the largest data centre hub in Europe

                    we already know that a NATO country has previously tapped at least one of them, we know that Russians have recced them on the landward side

                    Most submarine cables are privately not state owned and our economy depends on them

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post

                      There are 17 comms submarine cables plus 1 for power connecting Ireland to elsewhere.

                      we are also the largest data centre hub in Europe

                      we already know that a NATO country has previously tapped at least one of them, we know that Russians have recced them on the landward side

                      Most submarine cables are privately not state owned and our economy depends on them
                      It was a rhetorical question DeV about cable ownership.

                      Well known that Ireland is the largest host nation to principally US owned Data centres and economically does very well in having them there. That a FVEY's nation to be specific has tapped Trans Atlantic cables is not unsurprising and would have no direct security bearing on Ireland but indirect benefits. The fact that Russians have recce'd them within the 12 mile limit is more concerning as it is a breach of territorial sovereignty.

                      This leads to the question. What ASW capabilities does Ireland require? To answer that first one needs to distinguish where does it wish to operate. Is it to guard against underwater incursions into the territorial sea or is it to start partnering inside the tent with other nations NATO/FVEY's to protect SLOC's including undersea cables in international waters?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                        It was a rhetorical question DeV about cable ownership.

                        Well known that Ireland is the largest host nation to principally US owned Data centres and economically does very well in having them there. That a FVEY's nation to be specific has tapped Trans Atlantic cables is not unsurprising and would have no direct security bearing on Ireland but indirect benefits. The fact that Russians have recce'd them within the 12 mile limit is more concerning as it is a breach of territorial sovereignty.

                        This leads to the question. What ASW capabilities does Ireland require? To answer that first one needs to distinguish where does it wish to operate. Is it to guard against underwater incursions into the territorial sea or is it to start partnering inside the tent with other nations NATO/FVEY's to protect SLOC's including undersea cables in international waters?
                        Our main problem as a cable terminal is that in our Naval ship acquisitions we have avoided the ASW component and undersea surveillance in general. I'm not fully aware of added on equipment to the the newer vessels but they need at least side scan sonar's and an audible means of knocking on intruder doors. Obviously MAP with MAD capability is also a requirement. In the long run we must consider ASW units with up to date response. Due to the lack of our capability others are using our sea areas for ongoing peacetime actions against intruders. The only justifiable response is join the action and coord with partners.
                        Last edited by ancientmariner; 23 October 2021, 13:50.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                          It was a rhetorical question DeV about cable ownership.

                          Well known that Ireland is the largest host nation to principally US owned Data centres and economically does very well in having them there. That a FVEY's nation to be specific has tapped Trans Atlantic cables is not unsurprising and would have no direct security bearing on Ireland but indirect benefits. The fact that Russians have recce'd them within the 12 mile limit is more concerning as it is a breach of territorial sovereignty.

                          This leads to the question. What ASW capabilities does Ireland require? To answer that first one needs to distinguish where does it wish to operate. Is it to guard against underwater incursions into the territorial sea or is it to start partnering inside the tent with other nations NATO/FVEY's to protect SLOC's including undersea cables in international waters?
                          we may not own the cables but we own the seabed and therefore we have sovereignty.

                          as I understand it we have a sovereign claim over the Continental Shelf which extends beyond our 200 mile EEZ (in some areas)
                          https://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area...al-map-ireland

                          if we lay a claim we have a responsibility to that territory (as we do to the land a data centre is built on)

                          It wasn’t just transatlantic cables that a FVEYs nation had tapped it was a cross channel (assuming being at that country’s landfall). Potentially doing damage to Irish Government interests (which may not necessarily be the same as those reading it, eg Dept of Foreign Affairs comms traffic to Irish agencies or in deed Irish business interests) (having said that there is much easier ways to do it).

                          We are neither in NATO or FVEY (nor have aspirations to be). We we lay claim at the very least we should retain the capability to at least monitor what is happening on our territory (in this case the territorial seas or seabed within our claims).

                          that doesn’t necessarily mean a fleet of ASW frigates (with HMS & TAS sonars, ASW torpedo, helicopters with dipping sonars etc) or MARPAT with MAD booms or SOSUS system.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post

                            we may not own the cables but we own the seabed and therefore we have sovereignty.

                            as I understand it we have a sovereign claim over the Continental Shelf which extends beyond our 200 mile EEZ (in some areas)
                            https://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area...al-map-ireland

                            if we lay a claim we have a responsibility to that territory (as we do to the land a data centre is built on)

                            It wasn’t just transatlantic cables that a FVEYs nation had tapped it was a cross channel (assuming being at that country’s landfall). Potentially doing damage to Irish Government interests (which may not necessarily be the same as those reading it, eg Dept of Foreign Affairs comms traffic to Irish agencies or in deed Irish business interests) (having said that there is much easier ways to do it).

                            We are neither in NATO or FVEY (nor have aspirations to be). We we lay claim at the very least we should retain the capability to at least monitor what is happening on our territory (in this case the territorial seas or seabed within our claims).

                            that doesn’t necessarily mean a fleet of ASW frigates (with HMS & TAS sonars, ASW torpedo, helicopters with dipping sonars etc) or MARPAT with MAD booms or SOSUS system.
                            My immediate reply to Anzac seems to be in LIMBO. However nationally, under the auspices of the department of Environment and all things nautical, they are successfully mapping the positions , identity, and current state of up to 15,000 wrecks in Irish waters with multibeam pictures of the wrecks and surrounding seabed. I presume this is being done by the two Irish Maritime institute vessels. I have the volume covering the area from Louth to Wicklow in which there are some 4000 wrecks most named and positioned. it seems we have some capability but it is a bit misplaced as that would be done by a hydrographic Branch in most other Services. Leaving all that aside we cannot achieve Naval goals unless we equip accordingly and act in consort with others including Aircraft. I think LIMBO was such a method of operation using helicopters to pinpoint and ships then mortar from a distance. Doing nothing and saying we can't is why this tread is here.
                            Last edited by ancientmariner; 23 October 2021, 14:44.

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                            • #15
                              Perennially the difficulty in ASW was , as you close the target the return echo was seen and heard by operators more quickly until you got what was called "instant echo". In those few moments the submarine had a chance of escape. Walker RN introduced a system of ships in consort linked by radio whereby one would hold the echo and others would run in on the position and launch DCs with a more certain result. The Limbo mortars allowed a ship keep a target in track at a distance and launch from about 300 yards. This system held good up to the 1990's.

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