NS working hours at sea

[DeV]

Wanted to keep this to a separate thread

WTD says:
- max working week over 7 days is 48 hours
- breaks after 6 hours
- min daily consecutive rest of 11 hours
- min 24 hours uninterrupted weekly rest
- average max 8 hours night work in 24 hours

the WTD applied to seafarers is:
- 8 hour working day
- 1 rest day per week & on public holidays

- max 14 hours work in 24 hours (with max of 72 hours over 7 day) or min 10 hours rest in 24 hours (min 77 hours over 7 days).
- daily rest can be divided into no more than 2 periods (one of which must be at least 6 hours).
- intervals between consecutive periods of rest not exceeding 14 hours


Does the current NS watch system meet this (assuming vessel is fully manned), isn’t that 4 hours on, 4 hours off ?

They don’t get a day off at sea do they?

Obviously crews can’t be made bigger and in fairness to the NS they (once the Peacocks are replaced) have much better Accomodiation than most frigates.

would that mean (without being able to change crew composition) the best way would be 6 hours on, 6 hours off ?

I assume some evolutions would require all hands on deck (pun intended but I assume that’s where it comes from)?

[na grohmiti]

It depends on the role. Some aboard ship are "day workers" and while they would not stand watches, are available for maintenance work throughout the working day. For example, the PO/RRT was available to maintain the ships sensor & comms equipment, but could also be found doing boardings if required. Others work a 4 on 4 0ff system, with two 2 hr dog watches so you don't end up working the same watch every day. There would be a minimum of 2 "watches" often called Port & Starboard, or Red & Green (not to be confused with "Watches" or "watches"). So those working watches work as follows.
Day one. 14 Hrs
2000 to 0000hrs (First Watch)
0000 to 0400hrs (rest)
0400 to 0800hrs (morning)
0800 to 1200hrs (rest)
1200 to 1600hrs (Afternoon)
1600 to 1800hrs (rest)
1800 to 2000hrs (first dog)

Day two 10 hrs.
2000 to 0000hrs (rest)
0000 to 0400hrs (Middle)
0400 to 0800hrs (rest)
0800 to 1200hrs (Forenoon)
1200 to 1600hrs (rest)
1600 to 1800hrs (Last Dog)
1800 to 2000hrs (rest)

This would be when the ship is at sea. When at anchor or in port, many of the watches are reduced to bare minimum.

This is the theory. WTD expects 11 clear hours rest between working days. Naval watch system does not permit this. Keep in mind also that you may be sharing a cabin with someone on an opposite watch. Depending on the work being done, nothing stopping the skipper from suspending the watch system completely. Keep in mind the only crew members standing watches are those fully qualified to do so, or those doing understudy with them. Keep in mind also those working in the galley have their own system. and a lot like chefs in a hotel, it makes no sense to normal people. As for public holidays, you might get TOIL, if lucky.

Looking at the crew of an average naval vessel (2005 info from public domain)
Officers
OC(y)
XO(y)
Guns(y)
Eng(N)
Nav(y)

Senior Rates
Coxn (n)
C/ERA (n)
SPO (n)
Bosun (y)
PO/ERA (y)
PO/ERA (y)
PO/ERA (n)
PO/EA (n)
PO/Mech (n)
PO/Cook (n)
PO/Stew (n)
PO/Comop (y)
PO/RRT (n)

Junior Rates
LS (y)
LS (y)
LS (y)
L/EMT (n)
L/Cook (n)
L/Stew (n)
A/sea (y)
A/sea (y)
A/sea (y)
A/sea (y)
A/sea (y)
O/sea (y)
O/sea (y)
A/Mech (y)
A/Mech (y)
A/Mech (y)
O/Mech (y)
A/EA (n)
A/Comop (y)
A/Comop (y)
A/Comop (y)
A/Stew (n)
A/Cook (n)

Keep in mind my day worker info is VERY out of date, and based on a conversation with a friend who recently celebrated being gone from the NS 21 years. You can see however that each watch could have a minimum of 2 officers, 2 senior ratings and 8 Junior rates.
I know that with the current crewing situation, all this has gone out the window, and ships have to work with what they have. I believe there are no PO/RRT left in the NS, and PO/Comops are scarce as unicorn farts. There are many ranks that have no seagoing appointments, and consequently, these people are going to sea to fill gaps in ranks below them.

[DeV]

Much appreciated

looks like it follows the WTD with exception of a period of 6 hours rest, so how do commercial (or others) manage that (3 “watches” rather than 2)?

i can assume that they don’t get a day off unless along side, which would be another breach of WTD?

what do you mean by (y) and (n)? They stand watches yes and no ?

[CTU]

Much appreciated

looks like it follows the WTD with exception of a period of 6 hours rest, so how do commercial (or others) manage that (3 “watches” rather than 2)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchkeeping

[DeV]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchkeeping

Yes had a look there first but I assume that the only way the NS could go to a 3 watch system would be a larger crew or less tasks?

[na grohmiti]

More Automation, particularly in the engineering spaces. Unmanned engineering spaces are the way forward, with one of the bridge watchkeepers monitoring a screen with engine alarms, passively. OOW also responsible for conning. (greater use of active autopilot).

[na grohmiti]

Much appreciated

looks like it follows the WTD with exception of a period of 6 hours rest, so how do commercial (or others) manage that (3 “watches” rather than 2)?

i can assume that they don’t get a day off unless along side, which would be another breach of WTD?

what do you mean by (y) and (n)? They stand watches yes and no ?

Exactly that. Days off are always based on the exigencies of the service. In practice you bank them for a run ashore when possible. This is where the WTD falls down when it comes to military service.

[DeV]

Exactly that. Days off are always based on the exigencies of the service. In practice you bank them for a run ashore when possible. This is where the WTD falls down when it comes to military service.

thanks

do other navies do it though?

[GoneToTheCanner]

So when does a working day at sea start, in the NS? If you are leaving a base or port, what constitutes the start of the working day?

[DeV]

So when does a working day at sea start, in the NS? If you are leaving a base or port, what constitutes the start of the working day?

I would assume that the WTD definition would be when you report for work ?

[TangoSierra]

Those working in the Marine Institute who go to sea get an allowance because they work a 16 hour day.

Marine Institute Sea Going Payment
"When the Celtic Explorer was delivered in 2002 staff at sea were working approximately 16
hour days for 7 days per week Most trips are 28 days long and therefore the time accumulated by
each person is approximately one day per day worked.

In 2003, the Marine Institute introduced a scheme whereby staff were paid the full 'B' rate
per day (gross) in lieu of overtime. This payment was a new payment in addition to the sea
time allowance that has been given since the 60's.

In 2007, the C&AG reviewed the system and following guidance from revenue, we were advised both payments were subject to tax.

In April 2008 sanction was provided by the Department of Finance for a Sea Time Scheme
whereby staff at sea agree to work 16 hours per day, excluding breaks.

This comprises 7.5 hours normal working hours plus 8.5 hours overtime. This overtime results in a payment to
all staff of a standard overtime rate of €270 per person per day, which is processed through
payroll and fully taxed and subject to all levies and PRD.

Staff accumulate one 7.5 hour day's leave per Saturday and Sunday and public holiday worked.
No other benefits accumulate to staff going to sea.

The cost of funding the seagoing allowances is 50% funded through the EU Data Collection Regulation, with the balance being met by the Marine Institute from current resources.

Retention of the Payment
The Marine Institute regards this as a payment in lieu of overtime as opposed to allowance. It
maybe directly attributed to additional hours worked and if it removed then it will impact on
the Institute's ability to deliver the Data Collection Framework and fisheries obligations; the
Institute's ability to operate the research vessels 24 hours a day and it will result in an
increase in the costs of operating the vessels two-fold as the vessels will have to be at sea for
twice as long to do the same amount of work, resulting in less time available for commercial
selling of ship time (currently contributing €2m per annum).

[DeV]

TangoSierra
many thanks

how is that not in breach of the WTD act though?
- 16 hour working days (when max is 14 hours working)
- no rest day during the working week

is it to do with how it averages out?

how long would they get ashore after 28 days at sea?

[Sluggie]

The Naval Service operate a 3 watch system and don't use dog watches.

[DeV]

The Naval Service operate a 3 watch system and don't use dog watches.

Thanks
so 4 hours on, 8 hours off ?

[Sluggie]

Thanks
so 4 hours on, 8 hours off ?

No, for example a seaman on the 4 to 8 watch will get up ay 3.30am and work on the bridge for 4 hours as helmsman or lookout with breaks amounting to about an hour. At 8am he or she will be relieved and then begin a 4 hour period where he is the Cox'n or bowman of a RHIB for boarding stations or will be assigned cleaning or maintanance duties by the bosun. At Noon they will eat and go to the bunk for about 3 hours sleep and then get up again for their second watch on the bridge from 4pm to 8pm. At that point they can relax for a while before getting some sleep to be called again at 3.30am.