Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Drydocking?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • So how many million should we invest in a drydock facility for NS use only, that will only be used as a drydock for an average of say 8 weeks annually and will be used as maintenance berth the rest of the time?

    Where outside contractors are likely to have to be brought in anyway!?

    At a time when the NS can’t retain personnel due to poor wages and conditions?

    In late 2017, these were how many personnel the NS were deficit:
    NS Lt -36%
    NS SCPO -15%
    NS CPO -12%
    NS SPO -14%
    NS PO -27%
    NS LS -26%

    And that is based on a establishment for an 8 vessel NS and was cut

    Comment


    • Absolutely max there are 4 (normally 2-3) scheduled dry docks annually for 2-3 weeks each (normally 2).
      ever spent six weeks in dry dock because of a faulty sonar dome on a 12 month old ship.....?????
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        So how many million should we invest in a drydock facility for NS use only, that will only be used as a drydock for an average of say 8 weeks annually and will be used as maintenance berth the rest of the time?

        Where outside contractors are likely to have to be brought in anyway!?

        At a time when the NS can’t retain personnel due to poor wages and conditions?

        In late 2017, these were how many personnel the NS were deficit:
        NS Lt -36%
        NS SCPO -15%
        NS CPO -12%
        NS SPO -14%
        NS PO -27%
        NS LS -26%

        And that is based on a establishment for an 8 vessel NS and was cut
        The figures around deficent ranks are not contributory to ships not going to sea.

        SCPOs... one sea going appointment in the NS, current 3 serving in Exec branch alone......

        12% CPOs..what divisions are short...??? Ships require two CPOs each, one ERA..one Cox'n the rest shore appointments

        SPOs........one ship appointment on each ship. A L/SA could do the same job!


        The remainder....... probably tech branches vacancies and back in the darkness of time its always been the same.

        But if you haven't ships at sea because they haven't had required maintenance , all of the above are null and void.

        The NS need a dry dock facility close to home.. end of!
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
          So how many million should we invest in a drydock facility for NS use only, that will only be used as a drydock for an average of say 8 weeks annually and will be used as maintenance berth the rest of the time?

          Where outside contractors are likely to have to be brought in anyway!?

          At a time when the NS can’t retain personnel due to poor wages and conditions?

          In late 2017, these were how many personnel the NS were deficit:
          NS Lt -36%
          NS SCPO -15%
          NS CPO -12%
          NS SPO -14%
          NS PO -27%
          NS LS -26%

          And that is based on a establishment for an 8 vessel NS and was cut
          The figures around deficent ranks are not contributory to ships not going to sea.

          SCPOs... one sea going appointment in the NS, current 3 serving in Exec branch alone......

          12% CPOs..what divisions are short...??? Ships require two CPOs each, one ERA..one Cox'n the rest shore appointments

          SPOs........one ship appointment on each ship. A L/SA could do the same job!


          The remainder....... probably tech branches vacancies and back in the darkness of time its always been the same.

          But if you haven't ships at sea because they haven't had required maintenance , all of the above are null and void.

          The NS need a dry dock facility close to home.. end of!
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            So how many million should we invest in a drydock facility for NS use only, that will only be used as a drydock for an average of say 8 weeks annually and will be used as maintenance berth the rest of the time?

            Where outside contractors are likely to have to be brought in anyway!?
            A dedicated area in the naval base for ship maintenance which free up space in the basin for berths and allow the naval service to keep an eye on the "outside contractors" sounds better to me then hauling a ship overseas if the state were to lose its last dry dock on national security grounds alone, lets not forget this is a naval service we are talking about not a ferry company.
            Last edited by CTU; 20 January 2018, 00:58.
            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
            It was the year everything changed.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTU View Post
              A dedicated area in the naval base for ship maintenance which free up space in the basin for berths and allow the naval service to keep an eye on the "outside contractors" sounds better to me then hauling a ship overseas if the state were to lose its last dry dock on national security grounds alone, lets not forget this is a navel service we are talking about not a ferry company.
              Honestly given Irish Governmental "planning" such an issue is only going to come to a head if Cobh goes out of service, until then nobody is going to make such an investment even if it does limit the NS capabilities.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                i assume you mean the Government?

                No EU laws on State Aid have a big say

                definitely


                Quite possibly but your either going to have to:
                (a) increase NS establishment (not much point when the strength is so low)
                (b) staff it with DoD civvies who you will need to undertake other duties as well (not necessarily a bad idea, they could support other (non-dry dock maintenance) because the drydock is likely to be used maybe 12 weeks a year at an absolute max)
                (c) just provide the drydock and when drydocking is required get a contractor in

                Or do PPP and run it commercially
                When we took it over, it was operational, and had dockyard staff tasked with drydock operations. Over time by ignoring the Elephant in the room it became psychologically detached and allowed wither on the vine. Your point "b" is relevant as point "c" will be doable when the ship is in the drydock ready for remedial work. Overall it could work as outlined at " b " and " c " so that the Base and Basin are solely for Naval purposes.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  The figures around deficent ranks are not contributory to ships not going to sea.

                  SCPOs... one sea going appointment in the NS, current 3 serving in Exec branch alone......

                  12% CPOs..what divisions are short...??? Ships require two CPOs each, one ERA..one Cox'n the rest shore appointments

                  SPOs........one ship appointment on each ship. A L/SA could do the same job!


                  The remainder....... probably tech branches vacancies and back in the darkness of time its always been the same.


                  But if you haven't ships at sea because they haven't had required maintenance , all of the above are null and void.

                  The NS need a dry dock facility close to home.. end of!
                  The figures aren’t available by branch so...

                  The establishment is based on manning a 8 ship fleet and allowing for ship/shore rotations (which the CRE figures could well have changed).

                  Take your point about the SNCOs (can’t find the establishment figures (I hate the IMO search function) at the mo). The more important issue is the JNCOs.

                  Exactly and It is of course the junior ratings & JNCOs who undertake the maintenance work (under SNCO & MEO direction/supervision. The NS has had to recruit DE L/ERA’s due to shortages.

                  I’m not disagreeing at all that the NS needs a working drydock close by - it has a commercial one at a significantly cheaper cost (including labour) than the restoration of the Haulbowline drydock (as a drydock). There are plans in place that AFAIK includes additional berthage (open to correction on that). I’m also not saying that the Haulbowline dry dock wouldn’t be used or useful.

                  But Cork Dockyard has now lost all it’s RoI competition so you’d imagine (not necessarily of course) that they will have more work to justify staying open. It also means that the NS is even more tied to it. And they must have access to it.

                  Therefore IMHO scarce resources are (currently) better spent elsewhere within the NS budget. There only thing that would change that would be Cork Dockyard closing. One way of doing that is a multi annual complete NS fleet contract.

                  If it was to close then is a drydock a strategic State or NS asset or both?
                  To me if NS only - that means Haulbowline
                  State - some kind of PPP
                  Both - PPP (possibly in Haulbowline)
                  Last edited by DeV; 20 January 2018, 11:43.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    The NS need a dry dock facility close to home.. end of!
                    So what is wrong with H&W? And again, how do you plan to pay for it? At a time when we can't afford to pay the troops sensibly?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      State - some kind of PPP
                      Both - PPP (possibly in Haulbowline)
                      PPP historically has only ever served to cost the taxpayer more money.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                        So what is wrong with H&W? And again, how do you plan to pay for it? At a time when we can't afford to pay the troops sensibly?
                        H&W is not close to home. It is in another country, further away than other better equipped facilities in the rest of GB or France. Brexit will add to the complication of sending a ship to GB.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          H&W is not close to home. It is in another country, further away than other better equipped facilities in the rest of GB or France. Brexit will add to the complication of sending a ship to GB.
                          Nothing will add to naval costs quicker than the loss of an indigenous Drydock facility. When we thought we were taking off in the mid late 20th century the Government employed a consultant who branded VCD as non-viable so they were shut down in 1984. Now Dublin Drydock is gone. We are following our never ending pattern of no national industrial future and consign ideas to the landfill at the east end of Haulbowline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            ...If it was to close then is a drydock a strategic State or NS asset or both - To me if NS only...
                            for a maritime nation that might, in time of conflict or the build-up to potential conflict, have less than seemless relations with its neighbours, having a drydock/covered dock is a strategic national asset (like having an airport with a really, really long runway, or ATC radars, or control of its internal communications system).

                            even if those relations were seemless, its quite possible that when you really, really need a dry/covered dock, so will your neighbours, and if you think that the UK will bump a T45, or the French a Horizon class, down the list to accomodate an Irish OPV or MRV then you are somewhere between niave and deluded.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                              for a maritime nation that might, in time of conflict or the build-up to potential conflict, have less than seemless relations with its neighbours, having a drydock/covered dock is a strategic national asset (like having an airport with a really, really long runway, or ATC radars, or control of its internal communications system).

                              even if those relations were seemless, its quite possible that when you really, really need a dry/covered dock, so will your neighbours, and if you think that the UK will bump a T45, or the French a Horizon class, down the list to accomodate an Irish OPV or MRV then you are somewhere between niave and deluded.
                              Babcock were happy to bump the delivery of one of the recent OPVs so they could finish parts for the UK aircraft carrier.

                              Comment


                              • Although I would support a dedicated drydock is the basin not too shallow? Such a strategic asset must not only be able to take the current fleet but any future fleet such as the MRV. Looking at draught of ships like the BRP Tarlac (5.0m), HNLMS Rotterdam (6m), HMNZS Canterbury (5.6m) and that a meter or more should be left for the keel blocks then the available depth for the old graving dock might not be enough.

                                A possible alternative could be a floating dock, many of which are available 2nd hand at the moment for not a not of cash.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X