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  • Originally posted by sofa View Post
    As long as the Multinationals do the work providing the jobs. our 2nd rate chancers do not have to be intelligent or plan long term.
    Being a Sliddery hoor will get them by.
    Following the half life refit of a P50 class ship, and similar for her sister ship, and with 7 other ships requiring drydock time, we are arriving at a juncture where we need Cork Dockyard on an on-call basis. However we do not have that luxury and could be stymied by many third party demands on the sole drydock in the State. A damaged cargo ship could tie up the facility for months. it is almost critical to get our own drydock back in action even if it means building new gates and installing pump houses and their flooding and drainage systems. The US build floating docks to suit their different classes of ship. At least get a professional study done and cost the project so that we can plan realistically.

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    • Surely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.

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      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Surely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.
        That is why a professional study needs be done , and maybe it will decide a floating dock solution. My view is a floating dock requires minding and needs, in our case a berthage area NOT under our control. It might work if leased to a minder, like another Dockyard, with advanced priority booking for Naval scheduled drydockings. It would still not cover emergencies. I would prefer a re-established basin drydock in Haulbowline . It was there in 1961 but killed off by the exigencies of the times.

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        • Always wondered what a Graving dock was.

          Missed this first time around.

          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          Hi Goldie
          What does "graving" mean?
          regards
          GttC
          Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
          Ok...Listen carefully...
          To "Grave" a ship in times of wooden hulls was to insert a new piece of timber,known as a graving piece, in Place of Timber which has rotted in the hull of a wooden vessel.

          From that we get graving dock, which is a permanent dock with walls usually constructed of stone or concrete and sealed in the normal way with a "caisson". The term originated from the old practice of Graving, or Beaming a ships bottom. Today a Graving dock is synonymous with "dry dock".

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          • Originally posted by Orion View Post
            Always wondered what a Graving dock was.

            Missed this first time around.
            I think the term, in the expanded definition , is " Breaming " which involved removing yards of growth and shells from the ships wooden bottoms. It was before the days of copper sheathing and anti-fouling applications and on occasion went badly wrong. Fire was used to burn out weed regrowth but sometimes the hull could catch fire and burn out of control, leading to ship loss.

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            • I think we look at it from the wrong perspective. While it has been proven that successive governments have been 'sea blind' since the inception of the state looking at alternatives should be focused on private investment . i.e where it becomes viable for private entities to own dry docking and berthage and for the state to lease them back at reasonable cost, therefore reducing the capital investment the state makes. Bantry as a Naval facility has always had merit but its isolation from the major road networks makes it unattractive as do several other west coast locations
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                The privatisation of key state facilities/provisions has led to a dilution of availability, often controlled by entities, outside the country, and with a different agenda. Strategic infrastructure needs to be in control of the State. Every Navy should, within it's own territory, have ports of refuge in order to create reserves and/or move assets. The rush to turn historic ports into Office, accommodation, and leisure hubs, without making adequate alternative provisions for marine traffic is an illustration of the Agenda pursued by others not properly controlled
                But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

                Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

                Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

                Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                Comment


                • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                  But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

                  Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

                  Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

                  Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
                  The sharing of Haulbowline island with Irish Steel Holdings was always an imposition of political origin. Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security. Lemass and Irish Shipping management were aware of the need for a guaranteed repair facility for up to 19 Ocean going ships, during WW11 , so they took over Cork Dockyard. Right now we are removing thousands of metres of quay wall without providing adequate replacements. Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.

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                  • For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.

                    As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.

                    If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
                    Last edited by EUFighter; 29 December 2019, 22:12.

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                    • If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
                      These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
                        These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
                        Is the one-off towing costs from Cork to Brest more than the cost of maintaining a dedicated repair facility?
                        And how often would such a tow be needed?

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                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.

                          As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.

                          If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
                          That "plan" gets the reaction it's got because it's a fecking stupid idea from a man who has previous for fantasy ideas like this that never come to pass, let alone the utter lack of a use/business case for it.

                          As for the changes in the ports, you are right that times have changed and we see Dublin, Cork and Waterford building up their capacity to provide the needed facilities, though I suppose there is some degree of merit to the argument floated by the Architects about building a new Port between Dublin and Belfast and reusing the current footprint.

                          Making it a public Park on Haulbowline is stupid, though I have little doubt if the green area was left you'd have plenty of complaints that it wasn't used for the Public, but yes putting Steel where it was was stupid from start to finish. As to having a Naval Dockyard, lets be utterly realistic with where we are or likely to be in terms of defence, the use case for it isn't there, better to maybe engage more with Doyle for investing in the Cobh Yard.

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                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
                            These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
                            Has to be done before they enter civilian facilities any way... the nightmare that is de ammunitioning.

                            Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security.
                            In the case of Haulbowline it is indeed a limited environment but in the days of drones, satellite imagery and indeed the internet how secure is any military facility and how secure does it need to be in that the security required in days of old on Haulbowline at the height of any terrorist threat was actually comical.

                            If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
                            I'm in absolute agreement but we do need a dry docking facility on the Island of Ireland as much as we need a EPV capacity to be able to provide husbandry to ships using shipping lanes off our coast, indeed Bantry has often been used as a have for damaged ships in the past so why not capitalize on the ports of the south coast's proximity to the shipping lanes and again offer it out to private contract with a naval capacity inbuilt, as the state is continually failing to its obligations to the maritime sector.

                            If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht
                            The Weather on the west coast has always been the primary concern around locating a training facility and again weather wise those on the south coast are suboptimal during certain times of the year so a mid lands location would possibly be preferable for a stand alone facility upgrading facilities at the like of Waterford could be an option

                            Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.
                            Dublin is a nightmare, Cork is catching up But re location to Foynes or Waterford to include dockyard facilities should be seriously looked at before they become over commercialised and beyond teach of the Defence sector, but again I would suggest co location of army units if indeed to only increase security aspect , as a my locations are becoming isolated within city locations and making it very difficult to provide accommodation for those expected to live in such locations.

                            The advantages of greenfield sites with options to service the ships, people and even aircraft should be seriously considered or we will end up with a conglomerate of isolated facilities with impossible needs for expansion requirements
                            Last edited by hptmurphy; 29 December 2019, 23:09.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • Still much more convenient to de ammo a vessel in need of repair in an irish port. Ideally haulbowline.
                              Co locating with army units, is a stepping stone to losing another military facility. Best not doing that.
                              With regards to Bantry bay, a business based on beer island has become very proactive in expanding his salvage expertise, and now owns a number of long range tugs. His location is not far from the normal naval Anchorage.

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                              • Why is a park going onto Haulbowline?

                                Because it is a contaminated waste site that includes radioactive waste

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