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  • EUFighter
    replied
    For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.

    As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.

    If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
    Last edited by EUFighter; 29 December 2019, 22:12.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
    But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

    Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

    Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

    Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
    The sharing of Haulbowline island with Irish Steel Holdings was always an imposition of political origin. Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security. Lemass and Irish Shipping management were aware of the need for a guaranteed repair facility for up to 19 Ocean going ships, during WW11 , so they took over Cork Dockyard. Right now we are removing thousands of metres of quay wall without providing adequate replacements. Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The privatisation of key state facilities/provisions has led to a dilution of availability, often controlled by entities, outside the country, and with a different agenda. Strategic infrastructure needs to be in control of the State. Every Navy should, within it's own territory, have ports of refuge in order to create reserves and/or move assets. The rush to turn historic ports into Office, accommodation, and leisure hubs, without making adequate alternative provisions for marine traffic is an illustration of the Agenda pursued by others not properly controlled
    But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

    Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

    Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

    Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.

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  • hptmurphy
    replied
    I think we look at it from the wrong perspective. While it has been proven that successive governments have been 'sea blind' since the inception of the state looking at alternatives should be focused on private investment . i.e where it becomes viable for private entities to own dry docking and berthage and for the state to lease them back at reasonable cost, therefore reducing the capital investment the state makes. Bantry as a Naval facility has always had merit but its isolation from the major road networks makes it unattractive as do several other west coast locations

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by Orion View Post
    Always wondered what a Graving dock was.

    Missed this first time around.
    I think the term, in the expanded definition , is " Breaming " which involved removing yards of growth and shells from the ships wooden bottoms. It was before the days of copper sheathing and anti-fouling applications and on occasion went badly wrong. Fire was used to burn out weed regrowth but sometimes the hull could catch fire and burn out of control, leading to ship loss.

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  • Orion
    replied
    Always wondered what a Graving dock was.

    Missed this first time around.

    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Hi Goldie
    What does "graving" mean?
    regards
    GttC
    Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Ok...Listen carefully...
    To "Grave" a ship in times of wooden hulls was to insert a new piece of timber,known as a graving piece, in Place of Timber which has rotted in the hull of a wooden vessel.

    From that we get graving dock, which is a permanent dock with walls usually constructed of stone or concrete and sealed in the normal way with a "caisson". The term originated from the old practice of Graving, or Beaming a ships bottom. Today a Graving dock is synonymous with "dry dock".

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Surely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.
    That is why a professional study needs be done , and maybe it will decide a floating dock solution. My view is a floating dock requires minding and needs, in our case a berthage area NOT under our control. It might work if leased to a minder, like another Dockyard, with advanced priority booking for Naval scheduled drydockings. It would still not cover emergencies. I would prefer a re-established basin drydock in Haulbowline . It was there in 1961 but killed off by the exigencies of the times.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Surely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by sofa View Post
    As long as the Multinationals do the work providing the jobs. our 2nd rate chancers do not have to be intelligent or plan long term.
    Being a Sliddery hoor will get them by.
    Following the half life refit of a P50 class ship, and similar for her sister ship, and with 7 other ships requiring drydock time, we are arriving at a juncture where we need Cork Dockyard on an on-call basis. However we do not have that luxury and could be stymied by many third party demands on the sole drydock in the State. A damaged cargo ship could tie up the facility for months. it is almost critical to get our own drydock back in action even if it means building new gates and installing pump houses and their flooding and drainage systems. The US build floating docks to suit their different classes of ship. At least get a professional study done and cost the project so that we can plan realistically.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
    LE Roisin deployed on operation PONTUS in 2016.

    That damage was fully repaired by Cork Dockyard Ltd under a repair contract.

    LE Roisin before entering her MLEP was fully operational.
    Good to hear. I was afraid she had limitations. Nothing to worry about and her half life refit will boost her future use.

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  • A/TEL
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If there are any residual matters to be rectified post HMCS Chicoutimi weather incident, if they are taken care of fully, then maybe she can be deployed to the same level of intensity as her sister-Mediterranean-circumnavigation of South America-Far east tour to China/Japan.
    LE Roisin deployed on operation PONTUS in 2016.

    That damage was fully repaired by Cork Dockyard Ltd under a repair contract.

    LE Roisin before entering her MLEP was fully operational.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmitÃ* View Post



    Much of the work can be done away from the drydock I'd say.
    If there are any residual matters to be rectified post HMCS Chicoutimi weather incident, if they are taken care of fully, then maybe she can be deployed to the same level of intensity as her sister-Mediterranean-circumnavigation of South America-Far east tour to China/Japan.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by client View Post
    Have Tymor Marine Ltd finished the survey of P50 and P51 and is there are news of what drydock will be used for the mid life upgrades ?






    Much of the work can be done away from the drydock I'd say.

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  • client
    replied
    Have Tymor Marine Ltd finished the survey of P50 and P51 and is there are news of what drydock will be used for the mid life upgrades ?

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    I was aboard Aoife and Eithne for their mid life refit and the work involved was an eye opener. The one thing that stood out though was while the ship was being gutted and new equipment, carpets and furnishings fitted, the crew were still expected to live aboard. Not the full crew of course, but the skeleton staff required for duties etc. This is something that needs to be adressed urgently. Either construct permanent accomodation ashore in the Basin, or aquire portable accomodation modules, that can be used as required. In a few years all the fleet will be capable of holding at least 1 TEU aboard ship, they could do worse than include a self contained accom box. It would be better than a portaloo on the quayside.

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