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  • EUFighter
    replied
    The only reason why at the moment I would be against developing a Naval Dockyard facility is the extremely low level of budget available to the DF. Although it would be strategically a good call there are many more pressing demands for funds. Pay, accommodating, equipment....................................

    Having said that if the money was available then there is a bit of work to be done; the graving dock measures about 180m x 30m roughly. That would be enough for a Enforcer 9000/10000 and as they would be light, their draught would be less than their maximum of 5.2-5.5m. However the caisson would most likely replaced as the repair cost is probably higher than getting a new one. The altars on the end and side of the dock would have to be removed; this is part of the current plans so it can be assumed that this has been done. Then there would be a need for dockside cranes and workshops for manufacture and assembly of parts need for the overhaul.

    On the point of commercial ship vs warship the actual inspections are very similar just that warships have it ever year while comercial ships it is twice every five years. But one thing that should not be forgotten is vessel refits, every 10-15 years a warship should be back for a major refit/upgrade. The time for such a refit varies from a couple of weeks to a couple of years! But if we assume 6 months and a 9 ship fleet with a refit cycle of 10 years then the place is 100% booked! Infact most work carried out in naval dockyards is refit work rather than just annual maintenance.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 26 August 2018, 10:37.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    It seems that the one thing world wide which has zero tariff is any weapon system! Have to watch for garlic being import marked as bombs!
    Spend a few bob finding out the cost of bringing Naval Drydock back into full service. Consider partnership with another Navy. Build or have accommodation/catering facilities for own and other ships undergoing repair in drydock. No crapping, weeing, or running water rule into drydock bottom. If off duty an MRV could also provide accommodation and services.
    Commercial drydocking is always minimised to maintain running ships e.g. polishable hull paints and afloat cleaning systems. Warships are usually docked annually to maintain speed, fuel efficiency, check hull valves, check and replace anodes, check other hull fittings, and paint where necessary. Nine ships could require 18/27 drydock weeks. Drydocks need 4 weeks annual self maintenance and cleaning/hygiene. This leaves 21 weeks for exigencies and other invited users, including own naval harbour craft. Drydock staff are selected Yard workers from chippies, engineers etc. Strategically it is a good investment.

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  • DeV
    replied
    Ok not sure about services but if we purchased a MRV (or OPV) from a non-EU country under WTO rules there is 0% duty - HTC 890610 / 89069010

    Edit - you got there before me
    Last edited by DeV; 25 August 2018, 21:44.

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  • spider
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Will tendering to a Non EU service provider be even permitted post brexit?
    Another one of the reasons people voted leave...

    https://www.ice.org.uk/what-is-civil...royal-dockyard

    Interesting article about Devonport...the video is worth a watch.

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  • EUFighter
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Do tarrifs apply to services?

    The could do on say a new gearbox (possibly a refurbished) being fitted to a vessel or something like that as it would be imported into the EU

    There wouldn’t be anything to stop a 3rd country getting the business so long as it is tendered legally
    Ohh yeah, tarrifs definitely apply to services, in-fact the FTA with Canada (CETA) excluded services! A 3rd country can tender, they will just have a traffic to pay.

    However currently the EU tariff on warships from 3rd countries is 0%. The tariff can be found under the CN code 8906 10 00.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 25 August 2018, 21:30.

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  • DeV
    replied
    Do tarrifs apply to services?

    The could do on say a new gearbox (possibly a refurbished) being fitted to a vessel or something like that as it would be imported into the EU

    There wouldn’t be anything to stop a 3rd country getting the business so long as it is tendered legally
    Last edited by DeV; 25 August 2018, 20:06.

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  • EUFighter
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
    Its all about Brexit. Will any UK yard be an option, economically post brexit? How much would the standard customs charges add to overall cost? Will tendering to a Non EU service provider be even permitted post brexit?
    I tend to agree, the UK going the Brexit route means UK yards will have it hard to get EU work in the future. I am not sure what the WTO Third country tarrif is but we can be sure the EU has a high one to protect its shipyards.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Its all about Brexit. Will any UK yard be an option, economically post brexit? How much would the standard customs charges add to overall cost? Will tendering to a Non EU service provider be even permitted post brexit?

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  • spider
    replied
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    If we look at Europe very few navies now have there own drydocking facilities, looking at the medium sized navies:
    • The Danish base at Korsør Base which is home to their Iver Huitfeldt-class frigates and Absalon-class support ships has no drydock facility.
    • The Dutch base at Den Helder has only drydocking available for their frigates. The larger Rotterdam LPDs and Karel Doorman JSS cannot fit into the covered drydock.
    • The Norwegian base at Haakonsvern has a drydock inside a mountain! It could at a pinch fit their old Oslo class frigates (11m beam) but hasn't a chance of taking a Fridtjof Nansen class frigate.
    • The Portuguese base in Lisabon has no drydock what so ever. There was a shipyard next to the base but this has long since closed and the facilities dismantled.


    I agree we should do a co-operation with a close European Naval yard and is why I proposed the facilities in Brest. There is the extensive naval yard as well as commercial yards. Given the on-going debate about the new connection to the mainland EU, while nearby Roscoff has a ro-ro facility it is limited while Brest has a container terminal and an airport. The latter is handy to fly a few NS boys out to from Cork in the new PC12s. So thinking strategically it would be maybe a good idea to think about a strategic partnership between Cork and Brest. The French will get EU development fund to develop the harbour (Roscoff has limited expansion room) and the links to it. We get a good deal on the use of the naval yard and maybe even Stobart Air could switch from Cork Rennes to Cork Brest!(Save on the AC boys having to fly single engine over water!!!!).

    So coming back to the arguement we cannot get a 9000t EPV/MRV as we have no local drydock, I would think that it should not be a deciding factor.
    In that case you may as well go to Babcock at Devonport...14 dry docks...and they built a lot of your current fleet.

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  • EUFighter
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    At this time-- ship building , ship repair, and marine equipment manufacture is operating in a global market. The European share of that on an all ships basis is diminishing with over 70% of marine equipments and new build being on Asian order books. Drydocks tend to follow the business and despite Globalisation European yards have most of the cruise liner, and off shore vessel business in the order of 80/90%. Drydocks tend to be very large for Cruise liners and Offshore structure units and small for Offshore ships. Our wishes need to be met in co-operation with our European Naval Yards rather than the open market to allow for access and care of crews. It is certainly not a buyers market in a Naval sense.
    Lack of foresight, and planning will lead to multi-ship problems not least maintenance but also crewing and filling technical slots both ashore and afloat.
    If we look at Europe very few navies now have there own drydocking facilities, looking at the medium sized navies:
    • The Danish base at Korsør Base which is home to their Iver Huitfeldt-class frigates and Absalon-class support ships has no drydock facility.
    • The Dutch base at Den Helder has only drydocking available for their frigates. The larger Rotterdam LPDs and Karel Doorman JSS cannot fit into the covered drydock.
    • The Norwegian base at Haakonsvern has a drydock inside a mountain! It could at a pinch fit their old Oslo class frigates (11m beam) but hasn't a chance of taking a Fridtjof Nansen class frigate.
    • The Portuguese base in Lisabon has no drydock what so ever. There was a shipyard next to the base but this has long since closed and the facilities dismantled.


    I agree we should do a co-operation with a close European Naval yard and is why I proposed the facilities in Brest. There is the extensive naval yard as well as commercial yards. Given the on-going debate about the new connection to the mainland EU, while nearby Roscoff has a ro-ro facility it is limited while Brest has a container terminal and an airport. The latter is handy to fly a few NS boys out to from Cork in the new PC12s. So thinking strategically it would be maybe a good idea to think about a strategic partnership between Cork and Brest. The French will get EU development fund to develop the harbour (Roscoff has limited expansion room) and the links to it. We get a good deal on the use of the naval yard and maybe even Stobart Air could switch from Cork Rennes to Cork Brest!(Save on the AC boys having to fly single engine over water!!!!).

    So coming back to the arguement we cannot get a 9000t EPV/MRV as we have no local drydock, I would think that it should not be a deciding factor.

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  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    Not just them, within the EU there is currently a lot of over capacity for ship repair/overhaul with a lot of yards looking for work. It is a buyers market and while we might have some sentimental attachment to H&W it does not mean they would be a preferred bidder. Earlier I mention the Brest Naval Yard, well it is actually closer than Belfast Lough.
    At this time-- ship building , ship repair, and marine equipment manufacture is operating in a global market. The European share of that on an all ships basis is diminishing with over 70% of marine equipments and new build being on Asian order books. Drydocks tend to follow the business and despite Globalisation European yards have most of the cruise liner, and off shore vessel business in the order of 80/90%. Drydocks tend to be very large for Cruise liners and Offshore structure units and small for Offshore ships. Our wishes need to be met in co-operation with our European Naval Yards rather than the open market to allow for access and care of crews. It is certainly not a buyers market in a Naval sense.
    Lack of foresight, and planning will lead to multi-ship problems not least maintenance but also crewing and filling technical slots both ashore and afloat.

    Leave a comment:


  • EUFighter
    replied
    Originally posted by spider View Post
    Purely speculation on my part...but I'd guess H&W would rip whoever arm off to get drydocking the Irish Naval Service fleet on an annual basis..,
    Not just them, within the EU there is currently a lot of over capacity for ship repair/overhaul with a lot of yards looking for work. It is a buyers market and while we might have some sentimental attachment to H&W it does not mean they would be a preferred bidder. Earlier I mention the Brest Naval Yard, well it is actually closer than Belfast Lough.

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  • spider
    replied
    Purely speculation on my part...but I'd guess H&W would rip whoever arm off to get drydocking the Irish Naval Service fleet on an annual basis..,

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  • Sparky42
    replied
    Even if we went with a 9K EPV, I'd still be highly doubtful of any suggestion of trying to set up a "naval" yard, to me even in such case we don't have the hulls to sustain such a yard with a continuous workload either to make economic sense or to sustain the skillsets of the workforce, mainly because unlike Cobh if it was in the Base we wouldn't have commercial usage of it and regular work on 9 or so hulls doesn't seem enough based on their usage of Cobh on a yearly basis. To me it would make more sense to go the OPV mooring route and if we did go larger than Cobh can handle then see about sourcing a larger dock.

    As to the argument that commercially we need such a larger dock for the current and planned increase in hulls, given the lack of such facilities hasn't stopped commercial activities so far I don't see that as an issue, neither Irish Ferries or Brittany Ferries raised any issues about it when both of them suffered mechanical failures over the last couple of years for example.

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  • DeV
    replied
    Plan is to dredge it, remove the “stone buttress type structures” from the west side, regularise the face of the wall, remove the floating marina, provide facilities on both walls in order to provide simultaneous berthing for 2 x P60 class on opposite walls offset fore and aft.

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