Originally posted by sofa
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Drydocking?
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Surely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostSurely a suitably large floating dock would be a better investment? Given the frequency of occasions when the ships need to be out of water, there is enough demand for our own dock, perhaps making it available to other state agencies when not scheduled for Naval work.
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Always wondered what a Graving dock was.
Missed this first time around.
Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View PostHi Goldie
What does "graving" mean?
regards
GttCOriginally posted by Goldie fish View PostOk...Listen carefully...
To "Grave" a ship in times of wooden hulls was to insert a new piece of timber,known as a graving piece, in Place of Timber which has rotted in the hull of a wooden vessel.
From that we get graving dock, which is a permanent dock with walls usually constructed of stone or concrete and sealed in the normal way with a "caisson". The term originated from the old practice of Graving, or Beaming a ships bottom. Today a Graving dock is synonymous with "dry dock".
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Originally posted by Orion View PostAlways wondered what a Graving dock was.
Missed this first time around.
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I think we look at it from the wrong perspective. While it has been proven that successive governments have been 'sea blind' since the inception of the state looking at alternatives should be focused on private investment . i.e where it becomes viable for private entities to own dry docking and berthage and for the state to lease them back at reasonable cost, therefore reducing the capital investment the state makes. Bantry as a Naval facility has always had merit but its isolation from the major road networks makes it unattractive as do several other west coast locationsCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostThe privatisation of key state facilities/provisions has led to a dilution of availability, often controlled by entities, outside the country, and with a different agenda. Strategic infrastructure needs to be in control of the State. Every Navy should, within it's own territory, have ports of refuge in order to create reserves and/or move assets. The rush to turn historic ports into Office, accommodation, and leisure hubs, without making adequate alternative provisions for marine traffic is an illustration of the Agenda pursued by others not properly controlled
Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.
Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.
Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostBut we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.
Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.
Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.
Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
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For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.
As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.
If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?Last edited by EUFighter; 29 December 2019, 23:12.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostIf a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
And how often would such a tow be needed?
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostFor dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.
As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.
If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
As for the changes in the ports, you are right that times have changed and we see Dublin, Cork and Waterford building up their capacity to provide the needed facilities, though I suppose there is some degree of merit to the argument floated by the Architects about building a new Port between Dublin and Belfast and reusing the current footprint.
Making it a public Park on Haulbowline is stupid, though I have little doubt if the green area was left you'd have plenty of complaints that it wasn't used for the Public, but yes putting Steel where it was was stupid from start to finish. As to having a Naval Dockyard, lets be utterly realistic with where we are or likely to be in terms of defence, the use case for it isn't there, better to maybe engage more with Doyle for investing in the Cobh Yard.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostIf a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security.
If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht
Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.
The advantages of greenfield sites with options to service the ships, people and even aircraft should be seriously considered or we will end up with a conglomerate of isolated facilities with impossible needs for expansion requirementsLast edited by hptmurphy; 30 December 2019, 00:09.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Still much more convenient to de ammo a vessel in need of repair in an irish port. Ideally haulbowline.
Co locating with army units, is a stepping stone to losing another military facility. Best not doing that.
With regards to Bantry bay, a business based on beer island has become very proactive in expanding his salvage expertise, and now owns a number of long range tugs. His location is not far from the normal naval Anchorage.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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