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  • #16
    Hi all
    What was the Ferdia, then? A converted fishing vessel or what?
    regards
    GttC

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    • #17
      I'm not belittling waht people do or what is suffered on certain ships. i could rant about the failings of Eithne and the problems it caused the crews at the time.

      The design of the P51s was developed by develped by Appledore as it was then with a high imput from naval service but it was not a tried and tested design. It was built to a civilian standard with naval aspects. Thet were not tested to the extremes that they were expected to oprate under..and as the guy with the expierince says a lot of the prpblems and issues are related to maning levels and extended patrol mandates.

      Yes then the problems lie at the inception level of the ship in the faults which were expirenced through lack of a proper development programme..but also the demand for increased patrol times has been a contributory factor the misgivings of the crew. If the ships are in contravention to percieved crew comfort. The amount of time living on these ships should be reduced with the use of secondary crews to rotate and thus reduce the stress levels of a crew.

      Yes I didn't have to do 220 days at sea..but again i did serve on a concept ship with a huge amount of teething problems..and did have to operate in system with vastly reduced numbers below the proposed establishment of the service at the time.....Duties one day in three...sentry duties along side..crew shortages..kit shortages..and far less pay..about one third of what a rating takes home today.....no representitive association..and an officer corps which was of a completely different mindset and ability of that which currently serves.

      I am well qualified to put my opinions forth...and only wish to increase the visibilty of how difficult life at sea can be..when the ships and manning levels are not adequate for the job in hand.

      I have no first hand expierince of serving on a P51 but have monitored their service with interest..yes they may be the nice shiny new pieces of kit the navy wanted..but I have no doubt that they are racked with the same design faults that comes from being leaders in class and these would only ever be improved on by building more of the class and learning from the lesson learned in previous examples.

      And finally conditions pay etc have been fantastically improved over the past twenty years..and this has been down to the memebers stating their case and the represntitive association battling long and hard to have these issues dealt with in line with current employment philosphy.If there are further issues..at least you have the mechanisms in place to at least try for it..we in the past did not have that..and our lot was so much poorer because of it.

      If the deign of such vessels has beeen so succcessful..and comercially viable..why has no other nation purchased such a vessel..its the same as the Eithne thing..its the ship the higher ups want...but realistically they are only very basic patrol vessels..with naval aspects....if they want warships....buy them..if they want coastguard type patrol vessel..look around a look and see how other countrys are doing it..leasing..not building..using already proven vessels..and not trying to be a hybrid ..service.

      As long as the Command staff play this game..the crews will never have th ships they need to provide the envoirnment to do the job they joined up to do.

      But in the end..it has come along way..but it still has a long to go.

      Apologies to those who may have taken my original post to mean..that were ungreatful...it was merely intended to show how time have changed and that there are definete improvements in the way the ratings are dealt with..but the establishment of the service must be raised..and the crewing of ships must be rethought.
      Last edited by hptmurphy; 30 June 2006, 23:02.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #18
        Ferdia was the danish fishing trawler..stern type..Helen Basse....known to have ben totally unsuitable..and the service were more than thrilled after her twelve month lease ended.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • #19
          As long as the Command staff play this game..the crews will never have the ships they need to provide the envoirnment to do the job they joined up to do.

          Hpt please elaborate - and I want to hear from all those who actually spent 220 days away from base on ships each year!
          Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

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          • #20
            Thanks for the input hptmurphy.

            The design of the P51s was developed by develped by Appledore as it was then with a high imput from naval service but it was not a tried and tested design.

            One minor correction here:
            The design was based on the Mauritian Vigilant OPV, which was designed by a company in Vancouver, Canada called Polar Design Associates. That company was later bought by Kvaerner Masa Marine, which then became KMPD and did the concept design for the LE Roisin and Niamh for Appledore. The company is now called Aker Yards Marine, as linked in the 3rd post. The Vigilant was deemed a successful design except for a few flaws that were corrected in the LE Roisin. Obviously a few more showed up in the Roisin, but they were further ironed out in the Niamh. Naturally there is always room for improvement, which is the basis for this post.

            If the deign of such vessels has beeen so succcessful..and comercially viable..why has no other nation purchased such a vessel.

            Please see the New Zealand Protector OPVs. They are a modernized equivalent of the P50class. The design was also seriously considered by the Australian Navy and the British Navy and is under consideration by several other nations at present.

            They are very basic patrol vessels, suited to patrolling a nations extended economic zone, and not intended for use as surface combattants. In this respect, I would say they are really not a hybrid. They are patrol craft intended to maintain sovereign control of a nation's offshore interests.

            I think the NS bought these vessels because they cost a fraction of what a proper surface combattant with similar mission capabilities would cost. However, there was a side benefit in that these vessels, because they are not built to military standards, are built with larger spaces and better seakeeping, since the goal is more towards crew comfort and vessel performance than damage survivability.

            Many of the comments here regarding crew comfort are not just a result of lucky coincidence for the crew. They are a result of the design philosophy. Mistakes like the junior cabins being placed next to the engines on LE Roisin aside, part of the intention is to make a ship that is much more comfortable than a typical navy ship that is built to be as tiny as possible.

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            • #21
              Just as another note for the use of this vessel type:

              As far as I know, the EEZ that was extended some years ago to 200nm operates under the same sort of sovereignty rules as land, ie. Use it, patrol it, or lose it. My understanding is that if someone decides to do something like set up an off-shore oil platform within your country's EEZ, but you don't find it for a few years, well, tough luck for you, because they can claim sovereign control over that water.

              Thus, you have to patrol it. Naturally, the best way to patrol it is with a long range OPV, or preferably several of them. You want them to have low capital cost and be comfortable for the crew. And if fisheries is your primary offshore interest, you might call them fisheries patrol vessels, even though their role is actually a lot more than just that.
              Last edited by Orang; 1 July 2006, 00:21.

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              • #22
                Actually, it seems I made a mistake. The Australian Fremantle class, though smaller, were also built with this philosophy, as were the Thai PVs.

                I would venture to say that the NS was simply ahead of the curve in choosing to build OPVs designed to commercial standards rather than military ones. I think it is a trend that we will see increase significantly in the future.
                Last edited by Orang; 1 July 2006, 01:21.

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                • #23
                  The main problem at the end of the day with the Rosin class is that into the future they will be too short for anything other than fishery protection and even at that they will often have to run in ahead of the weather. If the state ever gets access to the continental shelf it will need to look at longer vessels which can survive the worsening bad weather. The difficulty for the navy will be to decide what is the right length. - Orang you are a naval architect you must have some formula that will relate sea state with ship length? Maybe we should merge this thread with the other one for LE EMER replacement because LE EMER's replacement in effect is going to be the next generation Roisin class?
                  Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

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                  • #24
                    The primary consideration for the choice of all the naval service vessels has been cost.

                    The last home designed build was a massive cost overrun...but had it been developed on..would have been quite a good class of vessel.

                    Obviously when the NS looked at the concept of the P51..they forgot to ask crews of similar build vessels..given the poor opinion of the crew memeber.

                    One thing has to rememebered...Ireland operates vessels in the harshest condition on earth...The North Atlantic...policy has not for a long time being concerned with the obtaining of surface warefare vessels..it has been for about thirty years beeen to have a fleet of modern patrol ships ..with monor warfare capabilities..this a feature that must be adhered to before entering into a discussion on what the surface is.

                    It has to be accepted that there are far more capable patrol craft available for the type of mission the NS carries out in it patrol and FP and SAR role...and that the current fleet is a hybrid to keep some sort of credible naval , military force in existence.

                    look at waht alot of the aforemantioned nvaies use as FP , SAR patrol vessels..the lease or charted the likes of ocean going support vessels..and use these...and use the samller vessels for policing and security matters.

                    I don't believ that there is one vessel that can meet all the requirement and be all things to all men, unless you happen to live and work and walk on the upper decks..wehere conditions below decks are of little consequence!
                    Last edited by hptmurphy; 1 July 2006, 12:45.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy
                      Ireland ...policy has not for a long time being concerned with the obtaining of surface warefare vessels..
                      The custodians of policy is the Government with advice from the Departments - we have such an archaic military structure I doubt if the Navy could ever adequately express what they want as they have virtually no representation at Army Headquarters, therefore have virtually no access to the department and therefore no line to the policy makers!
                      Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

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                      • #26
                        Heres a few pics of the guardian class for anyone interested
                        River snaps are from 2003 Savannah & Miami deployment
                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by armedboarder; 11 August 2006, 21:33.
                        As always, too many christians and never enough lions.

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                        • #27
                          Great photos, Armedboarder.
                          Once more unto the breach, dear friends

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                          • #28
                            Some photos Sparky took of Mauritian MCGS Vigilant, from the IMO gallery.









                            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                            • #29
                              Where were those photos takingof maurtis naval vessel they look like they were taken in Ireland were they?
                              British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                              Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                              [As the British flag comes down]

                              Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

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                              • #30
                                i was on honeymoon in mauritius and spotted it on a day out in Port Louis i have to say it was not the best of days.
                                Last edited by sparky; 4 October 2006, 11:55.
                                "Let no mans ghost come back to say my training let him down"

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