Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

River class Patrol vessels..

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • There were other reasons granted, none however were insurmountable. It's time to move on.
    Actually they were insurmountable, you can't sustain a small helo on a relatively small ship for long periods of time when the owner of the helo wants it else where, and its not economically viable to leave it on a ship!

    Both parties must commit to making it work, the Government didn't want the £30 million ship cruising up and down the east coast waiting for the AC to dictate when it would call, and the NS had lost the sweepers and needed hulls in the water off the south and west coasts instead of dicking around while the AC made up their minds on the lunch menu.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      The AC generally don't do SAR anymore (if they do it is very limited and inland only)
      The EC135 and AW139 (or S92) aren't probably equipped for deck landings in bad weather, which is the time they could be needed)
      Is the deck rated for a S92 sized helo (on a 2000 tonne vessel not those in the pics)?
      Does the EC135/AW139/S92 have HIFR capability?
      How far offshore are they rated for?...
      i'm not having a go at you personally, but there's some ****ing intellectual poverty going on with this obsession about what this or that helicopter/crew can do right now.

      lets get this straight: the S92 might be out of service with the IRCG by 2020, these ships will be in service until 2045 at least. the AW139's will be lucky to be in service with the AC in 2030.

      think a bit ****ing harder.

      HMS Clyde, and the three follow-on boats, have flight decks rated for Merlin/AW101 at 14,000kg. 2,000kg heavier than an S92..

      Comment


      • HMS Clyde, and the three follow-on boats
        Ships..not boats!
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          Actually they were insurmountable, you can't sustain a small helo on a relatively small ship for long periods of time when the owner of the helo wants it else where, and its not economically viable to leave it on a ship!
          .
          Actually HPT I hate to disagree but I would call that problem easily surmountable simply by requiring those helicopters to be dedicated NS assets and those who operate them to follow a f**king order! Its the military ffs!

          In any case with all due respect that is a 25 year old issue. Hiding behind January sea conditions as an excuse for not future proofing a vessel is missing the point every vessel from 85m to 150m will have a days when the aircraft stays in the hangar. But I can guarantee you the flying days will still outnumber the non flying at the end of the year.

          Forget for a second that that the new vessel will have no greater a footprint of influence than the 35 year old ship it replaces, in what is a huge ocean. Forget that a helicopter extends that sphere by 150nn in all directions. Because an embarked heli would always have been a pipe dream. A hangar even would have been unrealistic and semi permanently empty. But a helideck as a minimum is a must in 2014. You can still load TEU's. You can still load a few Mowags. You have an even better space for UAV ops. You lose no capability while adding so much.

          It is hugely regrettable that such short sightedness exists.

          Comment




          • Just in case ...
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 December 2014, 21:08.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
              Actually HPT I hate to disagree but I would call that problem easily surmountable simply by requiring those helicopters to be dedicated NS assets and those who operate them to follow a f**king order! Its the military ffs!

              In any case with all due respect that is a 25 year old issue. Hiding behind January sea conditions as an excuse for not future proofing a vessel is missing the point every vessel from 85m to 150m will have a days when the aircraft stays in the hangar. But I can guarantee you the flying days will still outnumber the non flying at the end of the year.

              Forget for a second that that the new vessel will have no greater a footprint of influence than the 35 year old ship it replaces, in what is a huge ocean. Forget that a helicopter extends that sphere by 150nn in all directions. Because an embarked heli would always have been a pipe dream. A hangar even would have been unrealistic and semi permanently empty. But a helideck as a minimum is a must in 2014. You can still load TEU's. You can still load a few Mowags. You have an even better space for UAV ops. You lose no capability while adding so much.

              It is hugely regrettable that such short sightedness exists.
              This was always the ideal option. The NS needs its own dedicated aircraft, with its own dedicated pilots. Utilising the Naas road flying club was never going to work. Not while Charlie Charvet needed the helis as his means of personal transport.
              The experiment needs to be tried again, with new rules..
              But.

              One thing which was accepted in 1983 was that to make an opv heli compatible, you need to do more than just stick a bit of flat deck on the back. You can, but most of the time (when you need it) you won't be able to land anything on it. Better off to do it properly, rather than as an afterthought. This is the basic configuration.
              http://www.witherbyseamanship.com/me...2AreaPlan.png/
              (D is the overall length of a visiting heli with rotors turning. In the case of an S92 this is just over 20m.)
              The eagle eyed among you will notice that none of the batch 1 Rivers had helidecks, even though they had an open deck area big enough to land a heli.
              Which is why the EPV has been planned with a helideck (to take a 15t heli). Put a helideck on a current design of P60 and you will have major issues with turbulence. See this diagram below to understand what I mean.
              So the solution is remove much of the structure as possible. So you lose the space where the ribs are stored, the wet room for the boarding teams put on the drysuits, the QM lobby, the Gym, the Sat Domes, the Wardroom, the Emergency Generators. So you move them somewhere else. Probably by adding another upper deck. They have done so on an earlier variant of the original design. They only operated an Alouette 3 off it at the end.

              http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Com...iant%20428.jpg


              In summary, if you are doing it, do it properly. Have Dedicated Naval Helis, with dedicated crew, who train regularly with the aircraft of other navies to ensure best practice. (Plenty of neutrals we could deal with, don't have to go the RN USN route). I'm all for having a naval vessel with a helideck, but not if it is just a bit of flat space with the letter "H" painted on it.
              German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
              German 2: Private? I am a general!
              German 1: That is the bad news.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                The eagle eyed among you will notice that none of the batch 1 Rivers had helidecks, even though they had an open deck area big enough to land a heli.
                Do you mean none of the River Class Batch 1's had a helideck like this?

                HMS Clyde P257 Batch 1 River Class.

                We travel not for trafficking alone,
                By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FMP View Post














                  What now?

                  Too big?

                  Too small?

                  Wrong shape?

                  Wrong colour?

                  Wrong kind of ships?

                  The pilots are female?

                  Sea too green?

                  Sky too blue?

                  Their using cargo net and not harpoons and all sorts of trickery from the archives of defense international and Jane's monthly?

                  But then they are using harpoons and all sorts of trickery from the archives of defense international and Jane's monthly?

                  Their civilian and not applicable?

                  Their navy and not applicability?

                  Like I said in my last post mate, your right!! Honest to god you are! Hands up, I surrender!!

                  I don't see any S92 landed on the deck of a ship there. I see lots of them hovering over decks, one refuelling while doing so. A few to be fair landed on platforms high above the bow area of the ship. Nice, but not practical on a naval vessel fitted with a 76mm fun underneath...
                  Nice to see the folded CH148 on the Canadian ship. Had not seen it before. Why are the crew wearing bio suits? Is it that toxic?

                  Why are you so cranky?
                  German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                  German 2: Private? I am a general!
                  German 1: That is the bad news.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FMP View Post
                    Do you mean none of the River Class Batch 1's had a helideck like this?

                    HMS Clyde P257 Batch 1 River Class.

                    Clyde subgroup is batch 2. Built 3 years after batch 1.
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FMP View Post
                      Do you mean none of the River Class Batch 1's had a helideck like this?

                      HMS Clyde P257 Batch 1 River Class.

                      The three pre Clyde vessels have no helideck. Clyde was a further development of the design.

                      Comment


                      • Modified with helideck and stretched slightly (2 meters, the bit of the heli deck that sticks over the stern) for operations in the South Atlantic. Falklands and all that. But still River Class Batch 1.

                        In fact if you really want to be correct with the "subgroup" title its the Batch 11's. Which are referred to as the Forth subgroup. Forth as in the river that is, and not my keyboard mashing for fourth.
                        Last edited by FMP; 7 December 2014, 20:44.
                        We travel not for trafficking alone,
                        By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                        For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                        We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          I don't see any S92 landed on the deck of a ship there. I see lots of them hovering over decks, one refuelling while doing so. A few to be fair landed on platforms high above the bow area of the ship. Nice, but not practical on a naval vessel fitted with a 76mm fun underneath...
                          Nice to see the folded CH148 on the Canadian ship. Had not seen it before. Why are the crew wearing bio suits? Is it that toxic?

                          Why are you so cranky?
                          Mate you crack me up, honest you do. I do chuckle sometimes till my sides hurt .

                          One of your many arguments was, in a nutshell, has Sikorsky cleared S 92 to land on ships decks and to show you a picture. Call it what you will, heli pad, heli deck, flight deck, I don't care. Fact of the matter is there are at least two pics of civilian S 92's landed on ships. I don't care how pickey you want to be. There are S 92's operating off ships. Therefore it is clear to see that Sikorsky (or more importantly the governing bodies who actually issue the licence to operate) have cleared S 92 to land on a ships deck and take off and fly over the ocean loaded with pax, cargo, and a crew. Whatever the shape or position or type of construction of that deck.

                          Not too many Rig Support Vessels, Survey Vessels and Exploration Vessels strut about with 76 mm guns or any other caliber of guns, missiles, rockets and / or muzzle loaders for that matter so in relation to the pics, what in gods name are you on about? What does it matter where the decks / pads are? Civilian S 92's are operating off of ships. Happens every day and every night all round the globe. And the CG S 92's that started all of this are civilian. And yes there is a Navy version of S 92 landed / landing and HIFR as well. Just for the hell of it because I too liked the pics. Add that all up and what do you get? S 92 operating off ships. Long duration, in the case of the Cyclone (Ship has a hanger etc) and short duration in the case of the PB ones (Bounce on and off transferring pax, cargo, take on fuel, do the odd rescue / medevac etc.).

                          So can S 92 operate off a ship and land on a ships deck?

                          I think the answer is a very definite,,,,YES!

                          No matter how you dress it up or down, turbulence an all.
                          Last edited by FMP; 6 December 2014, 09:15.
                          We travel not for trafficking alone,
                          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                          Comment


                          • The Sea State forecast issued by the BBC this evening:

                            Irish Sea is 4-5
                            Shannon & Fastnet is 5-6
                            Rockall & Malin is 5-7

                            The P61 is designed to operate unrestricted up to SS5, with some reduced performance (all ops) in SS6 and survive SS9.


                            Clyde can operate its RHIBs up to SS5.

                            Comment


                            • Jesus Christ. The Irish Defence Force. Our secret defence, as soon as an enemy shi enters our EEZ, their helis become inoperable. Boys, I've seen some convoluted thinking in my time, but the mental gymnastics you are going through to justify not having a helideck in the 21st century should qualify you for spin doctor jobs with Sinn Fein. January is a bad month. There's no need. ( no need for a UAV either, for the same reason. We don't have them now and we survive so there is no need for them ever!) when has there ever been a need for the deck gun? Complete waste of space.

                              It's starting to look silly.
                              There is one - and only one - grown -up reason why we don't have helidecks on the new vessels and probably wont on the EPV. The air corps is not fit for the purpose.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                Clyde subgroup is batch 2. Built 3 years after batch 1.
                                You really need to let Whale Island know about this mate. Their under the impression that their new as yet to be built River Class are Batch 11. Considering their the owner / operators it could be a bit embarrassing if they cant get the titles of their own ships right. Batch 111 would be more appropriate don't you think?
                                We travel not for trafficking alone,
                                By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
                                For lust of knowing what should not be known,
                                We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X